Mr. DEWALT. It was in my mind, therefore, that I would like to have somebody to inform us as to when that date should be fixed to meet the trade relations.

Mr. BONYNGE. We will be very glad to have somebody in the business and familiar with those facts, give the committee that information.

Mr. COOPER. A few moments ago I believe you stated in answer to a question from Judge Barkley that there was no question in your mind but that a piece of cloth made out of virgin wool would wear far better than a piece made out of shoddy. I am inclined to believe that is right.

Mr. BONYNGE. I am answering as a layman in that. That is my own impression. I assume so; because virgin wool has never been used before.

Mr. COOPER. Let us take it that that is right. The public probably does not know that to-day, but under this bill, if it is enacted into law, they will be able to find that out; and if they do, there will be a great demand for goods made out of the virgin wool. What effect will that have on the market price of wool?

Mr. BONYNGE. Temporarily it might increase the market price of wool.

Mr. COOPER. It might have a tendency to run wool up to such a high price as to make it impossible for the ordinary man to buy a suit of clothes made out of it?

Mr. BONYNGE. Is it not true that at the present time it is out of the reach of the ordinary man to buy a suit made out of virgin wool? And if it did have that effect, would it not have the effect that shoddy would go lower, and that the people would get a benefit through the decreased price of shoddy; and that therefore shoddy would be in demand because of its price, and so economic laws would finally regulate the price at which each would sell?

Mr. COOPER. That there might be a great demand for shoddy does not necessarily mean that there would be a great reduction of price. There is a great demand for gasoline to-day and gasoline is going away up.

Mr. BONYNGE. But ultimately supply and demand will regulate the price; and so with the supply of shoddy and virgin wool.

Mr. COOPER. We have found this out during the war period, that prices have been higher for nearly every commodity because there has been a greater demand for it by reason of the war.

Mr. BONYNGE. Certainly.

Mr. COOPER. And if there was a greater demand for shoddy, I can not see how that would reduce the price.

Mr. BONYNGE. But after you had enacted this law you would allow the general economic law to determine the price, whereas you do not do that now. It is a false condition that regulates the price. The shoddy manufacturer is able, by reason of the fact that the people can not determine whether or not they are getting what they purchase, to demand and receive the price of the virgin all-wool garment for its substitutes.

Mr. COOPER. I am inclined to believe that virgin wool garments are the best and that they wear the longest, and I wish that I could buy garments of that character. I was told by one Congressman who visited one of those shoddy mills in Pennsylvania somewhere- ·

I do not know where it was-and saw that mill in operation, that they were tearing old woolen goods apart there, that were so worn out and in such a decayed condition that they had to take a thread of cotton or something and wrap it around the fiber in order to hold it together. No one can make me believe that fibers of that kind are really better than a virgin wool garment; but I am wondering where it will send the price of wool to, under this bill.

Mr. BONYNGE. Why should not wool be entitled to receive its real value? Why should not the wool grower get what it is actually worth, and not have the price of wool brought down by its being brought into unfair competition with this substitute? Why not permit both of these materials to stand absolutely on their own feet and on their relative merits, instead of creating by a condition. which is permitted at the present time, a false standard which is to determine the prices of these materials?

Mr. COOPER. Of course, we all know that when there is a great demand for an article, the man that produces that article is inclined to shoot the price up.

The CHAIRMAN. I assume you want to conclude this morning, Mr. Bonynge.

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes, sir; if I can.

The CHAIRMAN. We have 25 minutes now remaining. We will run a little after twelve. Can you conclude in that time?

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes, I can easily conclude in that time.

I think I have covered very largely the points I desired to mention, except one point, and that is the encouragement of the wool industry. The wool industry is certainly a most essential industry to the peace and the welfare and prosperity and even the security of the people of the country. No country can be self-sustaining, and can defend itself in time of war, unless it is able to clothe its people and its soldiers. The last great war demonstrated that fact as well as any experience that the world has had. Unless Great Britain had had control of the Australian clip it would have been unable to clothe its soldiers.

I remember, when I had the honor to serve in the House, Mr. Dalzell, of Pennsylvania, made a very elaborate speech on the wool schedule in the tariff law, defending it not upon economic grounds, but upon the theory that it was essential to the security of the people of the country; that the wool industry should be promoted and encouraged in order that the United States might be prepared, depending upon itself and not upon other countries for the clothing with which to provide its soldiers in case of war. That was many years before the Great War, or before we expected we would be engaged in any such war.

Now, I do not desire to enter into discussion of the tariff or operation or of the dog laws that are in existence in many of the States, all of which may have some effect on the development of the wool industry. I do wish, however, to call the attention of the committee to the fact that if the passage of this bill should increase the demand for wool, you would thereby encourage the growth and development of a most essential industry in this country, and one upon which the safety and happiness of the people largely depend. For this reason, as well as for the other reasons advanced, I believe this legislation should be enacted.

I have sought, gentlemen of the committee, in what I have said to-day, to show that a general misbranding law will not meet the situation as it exists in the manufacture of woven fabrics and of garments made therefrom; that the conditions in that trade and in that industry demand special treatment at the hands of Congress; that that special treatment and the only special treatment that industry requires is simply the compulsory branding of the material, so that the public may have the knowledge that they obtain what they purchase; and that the people given that information, the general economic laws will then go into full force and sway and determine the price at which those garments and those fabrics shall be sold.

In the final analysis, you will find, as I have stated before, that all the arguments that may be advanced as against the passage of this bill will resolve themselves into the claim that it is to the interest of the people that they shall be kept in ignorance of what they purchase, for fear that if they got the truth they might be injured. Now, I submit that it is not within the province of Congress to say to the people that it is to their best interest that they should be kept in ignorance of the truth.

All that is sought to be accomplished by this legislation is simply the giving of the truth to the people. Brand goods for what they are, that the people may know that they get what they purchase. There is an insistent demand for legislation of this character. It is in the interest of the people not only because it will curb profiteering, but it will prevent deception and encourage the development of an industry very beneficial to the American people. If a general misbranding bill is enacted into law it should be accompanied by another bill along the general lines proposed by the French bill. Gentlemen of the committee, I thank you very much for your courtesy.

Mr. BARKLEY. Are you familiar with the bill No. 2855, the misbranding bill?

Mr. BONYNGE. Your bill, Mr. Barkley?

Mr. BARKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes; I have looked over that bill.

Mr. BARKLEY. Are you able to express very briefly your opinion as to its merits; the general proposition aside from that?

Mr. BONYNGE. Of course I have not considered it as a general proposition. I have considered it as it relates to the subject that I am interested in at the present time. I can see no objection to a bill such as you have introduced, a general misbranding bill applying to all commodities. But your bill does not require any branding. It leaves it optional with the producer. It is in line with the general thought of the bill Mr. French has introduced, so far as it goes, namely that if they do brand they must brand correctly. It will not, however, meet the conditions as they exist in the manufacture of woven fabrics, because there the branding of a garment or a fabric as all wool would not be misbranding, within the terms of your definition of misbranding

Mr. SIMS. Even though it is shoddy?

Mr. BONYNGE (continuing). Even if it were shoddy, yes.

Mr. BARKLEY. That reminds me of the man who said that he never ate hash away from home because he did not know what was in it,

and he never ate it at home because he did know what was in it. (Laughter).

Mr. BONYNGE. You mean that the purchaser would not buy shoddy at all?

Mr. BARKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BONYNGE. Yes; I think he would, but he would buy it as shoddy.

Mr. BARKLEY. I think that is possible.

Mr. BONYNGE. I thank you very cordially for your very courteous consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other witnesses who desire to be heard this morning? We have a few minutes left. Mr. French, have you anyone you desire to call?

Mr. FRENCH. No, sir; no one that I would desire to be heard this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Barkley, is there anyone else you want heard? Mr. BARKLEY. Not this morning. I advised certain people who are interested in the bill that these hearings would begin yesterday, but that they probably would not need to come until next week, because I supposed Mr. French would have witnesses to take up these two days. I do not know that there is anyone here now, especially interested in testifying this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anyone else who desires to be heard this morning?

Mr. DEWALT. I would like to inquire whether there is anybody here now, of these manufacturers, who could inform us as to this question of the time of the bill going into effect, which I suggested to the witness.

STATEMENT OF MR. FREDERIC S. CLARK, PRESIDENT NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF WOOL MANUFACTURERS, BILLERICA, MASS.

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Chairman, I am president of the National Association of Wool Manufacturers and also president of the Talbot Mills, a woolen manufacturing concern.

The question which a member of the committee has asked is taken up in the statement which we propose to make when we are called upon. I will inform him very briefly, without going into the details of it, that there is no method of properly stamping these goods, in our opinion, that could be put into force in all the woolen mills of the country inside of several years' time.

We would like very much, Mr. Chairman, to have been heard this morning, but the statement which I and the secretary of our association have to make on behalf of our association-that is, our full statement-will take in the vicinity of perhaps three-quarters of an hour or an hour. Judging from the questions which the committee has asked the previous witnesses, I have no doubt you will prolong that time considerably by the queries which you will want to put to

A great many of the questions which the members of the committee have asked this morning are answered in the statement that we propose to make, this statement giving information from the technical side of the subject and from the merchandising side of it. Mr. DEWALT. This point is covered in your statement?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; it is covered in our statement. I beg your pardon. Perhaps you refer to the question as to when the season's goods were sold?

Mr. DEWALT. Yes; and the application of this time, either the 1st of July or the 1st of December, in regard to present contracts or the execution of contracts for future delivery.

Mr. CLARK. The mills are now making up fall goods, contracts for which were taken from the 1st of January on. Some of them are even being taken now, but the bulk of them were taken probably in the month of February. The deliveries of those fall goods run up to the 1st of October, and sometimes a little beyond that. The great bulk of the deliveries would be not later than sometime in July or the 1st of August. But they do run as late as the 1st of October. Mr. DEWALT. When do they make their contracts for the spring deliveries?

Mr. CLARK. The spring contracts are made beginning in the month of August, and those goods are delivered up to the 1st of March of each year, although the deliveries do run somewhat later than that time.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Mr. Clark made a statement a moment ago which, unless he is going to cover the question in his subsequent statement to the committee, I would like to ask him about. I do not want to go into the examination if he is going to cover it later. I understood you to say that the stamping of these fabrics could not be done within three years.

Mr. CLARK. Several years, I stated previously.

Mr. MONTAGUE. Will you deal with that in your subsequent statement?

Mr. CLARK. That will be taken up in the statement which we desire to make to the committee.

Mr. MONTAGUE. I wanted to know about that.

Mr. CLARK. We take up the methods by which that can be done and the reason why it would take that very long period to do it.

Mr. FRENCH. Mr. Chairman, may I at this point, in connection with one correction I made yesterday in my bill, refer to it again? Some of the members of the committee were not here yesterday at the time. I referred to it. At the top of page 2 of H. R. 11641, the words "state or" should be stricken out. That same notation should be made in the title on page 1, about the middle of the title, where the words "state or" should be stricken out also.

The CHAIRMAN. I have just received a telegram from the Merchants' Association of New York, stating that they desire to be heard, through a committee, next Wednesday. The hearings on these bills will not be taken again until next Wednesday. On Monday we will have a hearing on a bill introduced by Mr. Anderson relating to the establishment of warehouse terminal facilities at the ports. Tuesday has been set aside for hearings on a bill introduced by Mr. Winslow, so that the hearings on the pending bills will be resumed on Wednesday morning at 10:30 o'clock.

(Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet Wednesday, March 24, 1920, at 10:30 o'clock a. m.)