I leave that thought with you, Mr. Chairman, when you are considering, in executive session, which proposals, or which suggestions, or which methods, or what mechanism the committee should use to conduct such a study.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator Murray?

Senator MURRAY. No. I am very much impressed with the need for quick action in this matter. It seems to me that Senator Myers' suggestion there is very good. It will avoid great delay if we act through the committee. At the same time, I can see how the investigation that is proposed by the Secretary would be much more effective and would have much greater effect.

I understand that a great many of these small mines are closing up, and they will never be opened again. They will fill with water, and the expense of reopening them and reestablishing them will be so tremendous that it wouldn't pay.

Senator MYERS. I might say, Senator, that, of course, the matter brought out by Senator Malone, the importation of fuels, has contributed to it; but it is just a contributing factor; it doesn't get down to fundamental cause. It is more fundamental than that, although that has contributed to the difficulties that beset many of the mines in Pennsylvania today. Many recently closed mines have .posted notices that they are closing because of the importation of foreign oil. I think it has contributed, but it is merely one of the contributing ́factors, and it is not entirely controlling. The problem goes much deeper than that. We have to go much further to solve the problem, if a solution can be found.

Senator MALONE. Do you think, Senator, that, perhaps, the use of natural gas throughout the country may have affected the coal mines, also?

Senator MYERS. I think, of course, that natural gas and oil, fuel oil, have taken away some of the market, undoubtedly.

Senator MALONE. You might meet the natural-gas situation, but the importation of low-cost oil, if it were to be a continuing thing, without any retardation at all, or any equalizing of the price, would be a continuing threat to most of the coal mines; would it not?

Senator MYERS. I think it would. It is one of the contributing factors. It is not the only thing to be considered, but it has contributed.

Senator MALONE. Is it one of the chief contributors?

Senator MYERS. It has contributed to a large extent, or a great

extent.

Senator MALONE. Would you say it is one of the chief factors? Senator MYERS. What adjective would be used, I would hesitate to say; but it has caused great difficulty in the coal industry. It has, according to the operators, in some instances, been one of the contributing and great-if you want to use that adjective-great contributing factors for the necessity of closing down.

Senator MALONE. There is no scarcity of coal; there is plenty of coal, enough for 700 years; is there not, Senator!

Senator MYERS. It is my understanding that of all our fuel reserves, all of our energy reserves, about 95 percent of the reserves are coal, as I said.

Senator MALONE. Considering the coal that there is, the statement has been made that there is coal fuel for a thousand years, if there is successful extraction of petroleum fuels from coal.

Senator MYERS. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Anderson.

Senator ANDERSON. Senator Myers, do you see any real conflict between your resolution and the resolution which the chairman has introduced? You are trying to get immediate action. If we adopted your resolution, and got immediate action, there would be no reason why we should not subsequently consider a resolution that attempted to set it up on a more permanent basis, perhaps on the Commission plan. You are trying to get something done?

Senator MYERS. That is right.

Senator ANDERSON. It is your suggestion that we do it now?

Senator MYERS. Yes. I understand that the scope of the chairman's resolution is primarily an inqury into the coal industry. Of course, the Secretary has said that it would be desirable for this inquiry to be carried out by the Commission, but he does think, if a Commission is set up by resolution, that its scope should be broadened to consider all fuels.

Senator ANDERSON. The final study has to be tied in closely with the Department of the Interior?

Senator MYERS. That is very true.

Senator ANDERSON. Quite clearly, the work that the Department of the Interior has done on a plant to test not only the production of fuels from coal but also the development of the electrical energy at the mouth of the mine has a great bearing on the whole problem. So that you wouldn't be opposed to going into this field that he proposes? Senator MYERS. Not at all.

Senator ANDERSON. But you want immediate action?

Senator MYERS. That is true. I think immediate action is imperative, and I suggested the other method, of the Advisory Council, in which the Department would play a very prominent part, and on which it would have Advisory Council representatives, and in which the industry would take part.

Senator ANDERSON. It would be your thought that we might be able to start at once with something of this nature and, perhaps, at a subsequent time provide for a more permanent Commission and spread it a little wider, if it is found necessary?

Senator MYERS. That is true. I think that should be the direction-I suggest that that be the direction of the committee's thinking. The Advisory Council proposal, I think, would cover many of the Secretary's suggestions and might be a substitute for the Commission proposal.

Senator ANDERSON. In the present legislative situation, surely, speed is necessary, isn't it?

Senator MYERS. That is my thought; and that is the one thing that I want to leave with the committee, that time is of the essence and speed is very important.

Senator ANDERSON. We will shortly reach the stage, perhaps, where only unanimous-consent matters will get through, unless they are extremely important.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be appropriate to state for the record at this point that this committee, by the Reorganization Act, has jurisdiction

not only over mineral resources on the public lands but also mining interests generally, mineral-land laws, claims, mining schools, and experimentation, and petroleum conservation. So that the basic jurisdiction of the committee is all-inclusive, and, as a matter of fact, we should put this study on without even passing any resolution. Senator MYERS. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Lehman?
Senator LEHMAN. No questions.

Senator MALONE. I was going to say, Mr. Chairman, along the line of Senator Myers' suggestion: The chief difference between your resolution, Senator Myers', and the chairman's resolution, is that in yours you suggest a committee from this committee, more or less? Senator MYERS. That this committee conduct a study.

Senator MALONE. That was your suggestion, last, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator MALONE. I would like to ask the Secretary a couple of questions if it is appropriate at this time, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; proceed.

Senator MALONE. Mr. Secretary, your studies on petroleum, I understood, encompassed three States, Utah, Colorado-and what other State?

Secretary CHAPMAN. On the oil shale, you mean?

Senator MALONE. Yes.

Secretary CHAPMAN. Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and Wyoming were the four States involved, principally.

Senator MALONE. There is quite a bit of shale in Nevada?

Secretary CHAPMAN. There is some in Nevada, yes. When I say, "study," Senator, what we have done is this: have made exploration studies in Nevada, the same as in Utah and Colorado; but it so happened the plant for demonstration was located in western Colorado.

Senator MALONE. Yes. I understood there had been exploration in those different States, whatever the number. But I understood you to say that it is now estimated to be 70,000,000,000 barrels.

Secretary CHAPMAN. I didn't finish a statement that I started to make. I said there had been two estimates made. The conservative estimate was that in this area referred to there was approximately 70,000,000,000 barrels. The other estimate was 90,000,000,000. Senator MALONE. That is nearer the estimate that I heard. Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes.

Senator MALONE. Further, there is approximately, as I understand, 26,000,000,000 or 27,000,000,000 barrels of oil blocked out, natural oil, at least, that they are sure of, underground, and it is growing all the time; is that about right?

Secretary CHAPMAN. We refer to it as known reserves; between 23,000,000,000 and 26,000,000,000.

Senator MALONE. But it has been growing continually?
Secretary CHAPMAN. Somewhat.

Senator MALONE. Over the years, it has been continually growing. Secretary CHAPMAN. It is rather interesting, Senator, that the figures for the last 15 years haven't varied very much, as between known reserves and actual consumption and production, because we have continued to expand the known fields, as in east Texas, which has made up considerable of that difference. There have been a lot of new discoveries of fields, not in proportion to the amount of increased

consumption of oil, of course, but the increase in reserves is principally because we have extended the known fields.

Senator MALONE. Yes; but the consumption has increased as the known reserves have increased?

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Senator MALONE. That was my point.
Secretary CHAPMAN. That is correct.

Senator MALONE. In addition, we have known reserves of oil shale of approximately 90,000,000,000 barrels? Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes.

Senator MALONE. Between 70 and 100?
Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes.

Senator MALONE. I understood you to say, Mr. Secretary, that your pilot-plant had shown to you conclusively that it could be made a commercial proposition. In other words, there were no commercial plants now, but the 400 barrels per day had convinced you that it would be a commercial proposition, or that it could be done in large quantities?

Secretary CHAPMAN. I said it can be done in large quantities. Obviously, private investment will hesitate to move in with the amount of money required to establish a big plant. Incidentally, there is a considerable amount of steel involved, anywhere from 15 to 30 million dollars in steel, in the development of such a plant.

Senator MALONE. Of what capacity?

Senator ANDERSON. That would be approximately a 10,000-barrelper-day plant. That is only a rough estimate. They would hesitate to do that, naturally, with the fluctuating market. The petroleum market can fluctuate so easily. It would be necessary to have a pretty stable market to risk capital in that kind of an investment.

Senator MALONE. Mr. Secretary, with oil at approximately $2.50, where it has ranged from $2.50 to $3 since the war, if that price were stabilized in that range, would that make this a feasible operation? Secretary CHAPMAN. If it were stabilized at $2.60, they could commercially produce it and compete.

Senator MALONE. About the only thing that would keep it from being stabilized, then, would be, perhaps, along the lines that Mr. George Lamb suggested, the possibility of the importation of lowercost oil disturbing the market?

Secretary CHAPMAN. That would be only one factor. They could do it overnight, if they wanted to. If somebody decided to sell cheaper than the others.

Senator MALONE. You mean, a cut throat proposition?

Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes. We have no control over that.

Senator MALONE. Suppose some of the throat cutters are interested in the investment?

Secretary CHAPMAN. If they had their own money tied up in it, I don't think they would join in that type of movement.

Senator MALONE. That was going to be the next suggestion.

How would it seem to you if the Government decided, or this committee considered entering into some kind of an agreement or set-up with private companies along the lines as was done in the manufacture of synthetic rubber? You remember we were so disturbed about rubber at one time.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Senator MALONE. We entered into an agreement, the details of which I am not entirely familiar with now, that took the risk off of the companies; but we had their expert knowledge and energy, and they had the possibility of a future profit; and so the companies handled the synthetic-rubber plants, and the Government helped finance them.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Senator MALONE. Would something of that kind help to get over this preliminary hump?

Secretary CHAPMAN. I doubt whether any company would go into building a $30,000,000 plant, unless it went to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to borrow some of that money, anyhow.

The CHAIRMAN. The bill of Senator McCarran, before the committee, provides for RFC loans for that purpose.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right. But that is a loan. It has to be repaid. It is carried on the books against the company. They have to have some more stabilizing protection than just the fact of a loan from the Government, because they are still going to pay it back. Senator MALONE. Then, Mr. Secretary, my suggestion really went beyond a loan-that is to say, if your experts-and you do have expers who have been working with these pilot plants for many years, and we are very gratified you have made the progress you have, and have made it available to the private companies-but if we were to propose an appropriation that might take up the slack for the first 5 years in the construction of a plant, along the lines, the general lines, of the synthetic-rubber program during the war, and then have a tariff, or an import fee, or some stabilizing influence on this lowcost oil importation, that might upset the apple cart-what would be your reaction?

Secretary CHAPMAN. My general reaction is that I would not want to proceed on that basis, and leave the coal industry out in the cold, without giving them the same incentive.

Senator MALONE. I was coming to that, Mr. Secretary. I was taking one subject at a time. The coal was next. You mentioned oil-shale, first, you see.

Secretary CHAPMAN. That is right.

Senator MALONE. And then the same question, exactly, for the synthetic fuels.

What we are trying to do is to explore some way to get someone interested in this, to try to make a success of it.

Secretary CHAPMAN. Senator, you are asking a question to which I think the committee will have the answer after they have worked on this problem. There are so many devices that are, perhaps, feasible. Senator MALONE. Yes; but does it have the earmarks of making some sense to you?

Secretary CHAPMAN. Yes; it does. Some kind of an incentive has to be given; that is why I want all four of these energies studied together, because any incentive that you might give for one might be entirely unfair to the other three, if you go ahead and give help to one, by legislation, and administrative action, and not give it to all, because there is private capital investment in all four fields that should be protected.