I am a San Franciscan, I might add, and I have had difficulty in dividing my sentiments between the 49'ers and the Rams and between the Giants and the Dodgers, but I have managed to keep them to myself.

Senator MUSKIE. Governor, one final question of my own: You say that you are not reducing the total amount of smog. Now you have made a reduction in sources other than automotive vehicles?

Governor BROWN. Yes; we have.

Senator MUSKIE. But your progress there has been more than offset by the continued growth of the automotive problem? Governor BROWN. That is right.

Senator MUSKIE. Senator Moss?

Senator Moss. I don't think I have any specific questions, Mr. Chairman.

I certainly congratulate the Governor on an excellent statement and congratulate him and the State of California for the leadership that has been shown in attacking this problem.

As you point out, Governor, this is a nationwide problem and there are other places where beginnings have been made, but certainly California has been in the forefront in trying to find a solution for what has become really a very burdensome problem, not only here but, of course, in the industrial centers of Europe and elsewhere.

We read not too long ago of deaths in London because of the smog generated there, and it is something that we must move on with. I do hope that out of this hearing, and the hearings that will follow, that this committee may assemble a respectable catalog of information that will help us in moving on with the problem.

Senator MUSKIE. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Bayh?

Senator BAYH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Governor, I wanted to add my commendation on the part of my senior colleagues.

I think all of us in the country are going to reap the benefits of the initiative that California has taken in this area. So in addition to complimenting you for your efforts, let me as a Member of the Senate from another part of this great country thank you, because I think ultimately we are going to be able to utilize the knowledge that you have already acquired. I think you have shown us that we are going to have to get hustling.

Your statement was very complete; it raised one question in my mind: The Chrysler Clean Air Kit; is that the type of a kit that is the ultimate answer to the problem as far as the various sources of automobile pollution is concerned?

Governor BROWN. Well, I don't want to be as definite as that.

I would rather have Mr. Griswold or one of the others answer that question. I don't feel competent to really say it. I feel it is progress, but I would rather have them describe it.

Senator BAYH. I certainly agree with your premise that if the problem is going to be really solved, ultimately the manufacturer is going to have to take a very large part in this, because right there is the ultimate place to solve it when we find the correct solution.

Governor BROWN. I emphasize, too, that with the movement of people from the rural areas to the urban cities that other cities are going to have this problem as our growth continues.

I mean, I don't want to minimize the solution of other means of transportation. We are not going to get rid of the automobile, although that has been recommended by some, but we are going to have to get good, fast, cheap, mass rapid transportation, and we are not ready for it yet. The people are not ready to use it in going to and from their work, but as you observe the freeways of Los Angeles you will see too many people riding one in a car early in the morning, going to work, and leaving at night. We do believe that we can have mass rapid transportation, but here in Los Angeles we are faced with the problem of how we are going to finance it, where we are going to get the money. You can't pay it out of the fare box.

The property taxes are so burdensome that you can't go any further in that direction. So, for that reason, the only thing that we really need is cheaper money in some of these somewhat insecure obligations, such as mass rapid transportation. By "insecure" I mean we are not confident that people will use them, and for that reason we can't pay it out of the fare box and you will be faced with that problem in the Senate of the United States probably sometime this year.

Thank you very much again. I know the others will add a great deal more to the testimony.

Senator MUSKIE. May I suggest that one way to escape this problem here is to take your vacations in the clear climate of Maine and we welcome you any time you'd like to come, Governor. You needn't go that far.

Governor BROWN. I would like to go to Maine in the summer, you can have our Palm Springs in the winter. [Applause.]

but

Senator MUSKIE. I think this would be an appropriate point in the record to insert a telegram from Senator Kuchel, who was the sponsor of the Federal legislation which was enacted in 1955 in this field.

The Senator had indicated some possibility that he could be with us this morning briefly and the committee deeply regrets that he cannot be.

So his telegram will be printed in the record at this point. (The telegram is as follows:)

Hon. EDMUND S. MUSKIE,

WASHINGTON, D.C., January 24, 1964.

Chairman, U.S. Senate, Subcommittee on Air and Water Pollution, Supervisors Hearing Room, County Hall of Administration, Los Angeles, Calif.: Deeply regret cannot be with you and your colleagues Monday morning as you begin your intensive field hearings in the great city of Los Angeles. I take pride in the service I was able to perform as a member of the Public Works Committee, when I first come to the Senate. and my authoriship of the basic legislation authorizing research by the Federal Government in air pollution. Much progress Much

has been made at the Federal, State, and local levels since that time. more remains to be done. I hope you will be pleased at the progress that bas been made in the area which you are now visiting. I think the Nation will be grateful to receive the conclusions of your study, since air pollution is no longer a southern California problem, but a national problem which exists in most of the urban centers of our land.

Regards.

THOMAS H. KUCHEL, U.S. Senator.

Senator MUSKIE. Now we get on to the first panel.

We will have in the course of the hearing two panels.

Our first panel will be made up of three witnesses and I wish these gentlemen would come forward as I call them.

First, Mr. Paul J. Young, chairman, Southern California Air Pollution Coordinating Council;

Second, Mr. William J. Phillips, chairman, Air Pollution Committee, National Association of Counties; and

Mr. Warren M. Dorn, chairman, Air Pollution Control Board, County Board of Supervisors, Los Angeles County.

I am delighted to welcome you this morning, gentlemen. I understand you each have prepared statements, gentlemen, so why don't we proceed with Mr. Young?

STATEMENT OF PAUL J. YOUNG, CHAIRMAN, SOUTHERN
CALIFORNIA AIR POLLUTION COORDINATING COUNCIL

Mr. YOUNG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Special Committee on Air and Water Pollution, I am most appreciative of your invitation to appear before you today and tell you of the history and function of the Southern California Air Pollution Coordinating Council. Before proceeding to do so, I must tell you how very grateful we are for your efforts and understanding that have led to the new Federal Clean Air Act (Public Law 206 of the 88th Cong.) signed into law by President Johnson on December 17, 1963, and also to commend your tirelessness in the performance of your public responsibility by visiting us and our area, that you may witness and hear of the programs, accomplishments, and problems we face in combating air pollution.

The Southern California Air Pollution Coordinating Council is a quasi-official agency representative of the county air pollution control districts in southern California, all of which were adopted in conformity with the provisions of chapter 2, division 20, of the California State Health and Safety Code. This code made permissive the establishment, by resolution of the boards of supervisors, of air pollution control disticts in those counties of California, where after public hearing, it was found that air resources were contaminated by air pollutants. The State code also established prohibitions and provided in effect under section 24247 that air pollution control districts may establish rules, more, but not less stringent than the State code.

Five southern California counties have established air pollution control districts under the terms of the State code, and recognizing home rule responsibility have proceeded since the inception of the first district in Los Angeles County in 1947, to administer their districts and to adopt rules and regulations, pertinent to the problems within their individual areas.

Although five counties have individual problems in air pollution and its control, they are a part of the Los Angeles Basin, or more particularly are geographically situated within a southern California "air shed" and as a means of working toward a solution of their mutual problems, in early 1958, formed the Southern California Air Pollution Coordinating Council.

Quasi-official status emanates from the fact that delegates are officially named by the boards of supervisors of Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange, and San Diego Counties. Additionally, Ventura County, located immediately north of Los Angeles County, is in

the process of establishing an air pollution control district, and will join forces with us.

Officially, delegated voting members from each county include a member of the board of supervisors, the air pollution control officer, and the county counsel or some other senior county official.

Additionally, nonvoting representatives including representatives of the State Health Department, Bureau of Air Sanitation, California State Motor Vehicle Pollution Control Board and Research Center of the University of California and other interested agencies staff the permanent, technical, and temporary committees of the council and provide an expert and comprehensive source of factual information upon which Council policies and action can be based.

To date the Council has served many extremely important needs. It has provided a forum for the exchange of views between the southern California counties, has served as a focal point for the coordination of county and county-State programs, has identified needs common to participating counties, and has provided a means for the articulation of common legislative policy fully representative of the needs and opinions of the member counties.

Functionally the Council has sought and continues to develop a regional approach on:

1. Uniform local regulations.

2. Application of the motor vehicle pollution control laws.

3. Development of responsibility and cooperation in emergencies precipitated by air quality exceeding the State standards.

4. Expansion of U.S. Weather Bureau stations, to encompass more

southern California counties.

5. Standardization of air monitoring data.

6. Radiological monitoring.

7. Visibility and the validity of the ambient air quality standards for particulate matter based on visibility.

8. Background levels of contaminants.

This program has permitted our profitably considering the need for more uniform emission regulations among the member districts. Specifically the regulations on particulate matter emissions are worded differently, have slightly different process weight tables and different cutoff points for large process weights. The same considerations apply to sulfur dioxide and some of the other emission control regulations contained in the individual district's rules and regulations.

In the light of this program, our own experience and objectives in San Bernardino County have been expedited in a manner that will permit consideration of the establishment of standards based upon practical information. Because we have nine plants in this county in excess of 100,000 pounds weight process, and the application of a weight process regulation is difficult, in November of 1961 we launched into a dust fall research project which is making significant advances. Our efforts have resulted in obtaining major Federal reserch grants for Dr. August T. Rossano, in a study of the effects of nontoxic dust fumes and particulates on visibility, and to Dr. Ellis F. Darley of the University of California at Riverside for study of the effects of these dusts on plants.

Additionally, a $2,153,000 project is underway at the University of California, Riverside campus, through the cooperation of county gov

ernment and industry contributions into the effects of fluorides, hydrocarbons, and other specific contaminants on citrus and other plants. This project known as the agriculture air research project is going into its third of an approximate 6- to 7-year effort and was also recently the recipent of a Federal grant-in-aid.

The Southern California Coordinating Council objectives have resulted in the development of a California statewide air sampling network. We have made significant contributions to the establishment of the principal policy declaration of the Air Pollution Committee of the National Association of County Governments, and have provided background information which permitted development of a legislative program by the County Supervisors Association of California which led to the successful establishment of the California State Motor Vehicle Control Board and development of standards for auto exhaust emissions.

Again let me say I am most appreciative that you are here to review the local and regional activities and to see the actual industrial accomplishments in southern California. We are confident that through your action and through passage of the new Clean Air Act our united efforts shall be enhanced.

I want to thank you very much, gentlemen, for giving us this much time and again to tell you how much we do appreciate you being here with us today.

Senator MUSKIE. Well, thank you, Mr. Young. We appreciate your statement.

I think that perhaps we will hear all of the prepared statements and then present the questions to the members of the panel, if there are questions to be asked, and I am sure there are some.

And so we will proceed then with Mr. Phillips, who is chairman of the Air Pollution Committee of the National Association of Counties.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM J. PHILLIPS, CHAIRMAN, AIR POLLUTION COMMITTEE, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES

Mr. PHILLIPS. Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Special Subcommittee on Air and Water Pollution of the Committee on Public Works, I, too, wish to welcome you here on behalf of California, the southern counties, and of course my county of Orange County, just south of this county of Los Angeles.

We are always pleased to have the opportunity to address a group such as yours and to clarify our thinking and to present to you the various points that we feel are most necessary to be brought into a hearing of this type.

We do realize that you are going to do this nationwide and certainly that you would like to have certain information that you can put together in a complete compilation of the needs nationwide.

If I may proceed with my prepared report, it is quite short and to the point.

My name is William J. Phillips. I am chairman of the Air Pollution Committee of the National Association of Counties. I am chairman of the Air Pollution Committee for the County Supervisors Association of California. I am a member of the Southern Cali