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Senator MUSKIE. That is not the general ?
Mr. BRADLEY. Which hearing was held only 2 weeks ago?
Mr. KANDLE. Dust and vapors.

Mr. BRADLEY. This is on a particular matter; dust. That is knocking out a piece of it.

When our commission first met 9 years ago, we laid out the program that we were to follow, as we understood the problem in New Jersey air pollution, and we have been doing this one after another. Now we are in chapter VII. Chapter VIII will be coming along shortly.

Senator MUSKIE. You have set up the rudiments of a metropolitan area program. At least, you are talking together about it. And you have that--what is the name of the committee?

Mr. BRADLEY. New York-New Jersey Cooperative Committee.

Senator MUSKIE. Cooperative committee. However, do you think the evolutionary is going to take that effort? Should you actually have an interstate metropolitanwide air pollution program, or should it be limited to consultation and advisory and recommending functions?

Mr. BRADLEY. The way in which it seems to work or can work best is for each area, such as New York City and New York State, the State of New Jersey, to continue with their efforts as they are and have been. This is for many reasons—personal and so forth, administrative reasons.

But, research does affect the entire metropolitan area and, for this reason, it is most important that this cooperative committee work together in forming programs for general research, so that our total knowledge can be added to it, and then we can work out the problem on an individual basis, yet coordinative.

Senator MUSKIE. Should you have some uniform performance standards? Mr. BRADLEY. These we are developing.

Senator MUSKIE. Can you anticipate developing them for metropolitanwide area use?

Mr. BRADLEY. As we know more about the proper levels for setting our quantity criteria, then such standards will be set; and we do not know the entire answer yet.

Senator MUSKIE. But, when you do have them, are you contemplating using them over the whole metropolitan area so that everybody is required to meet similar performance standards in similar situations with similar problems?

Mr. BRADLEY. This is true, and this is attested to by the action of the New York-New Jersey Cooperative Committee which has already expanded into the public health service liaison, is ready to accept Connecticut, and does unofficially, and can expand as far as necessary and to a total area.

Senator MUSKIE. It is contemplated that there will be opportunity for citizens in one jurisdiction, one community, or one State to hare recourse for relief against pollutants from another source in another jurisdiction or another State through some agreement for understanding!

Mr. KANDLE. That exists; that is the Interstate Sanitation Commission.

Senator MUSKIE. That exists at this time?

Mr. KANDLE. Yes.
Senator MUSKIE. How effective is that remedy?

Mr. KANDLE. We have not had an occasion in which we could not solve the problem, and we have had numbers of times to experiment if we were recalcitrant. I think the Interstate Sanitation Commission works very well.

It is an enfrocement agency with regard to water pollution and interstate water; it is not an enforcement agency with regard to air pollution.

Senator MUSKIE. May it become that!

Mr. KANDLE. Only the legislators can decide that. I mean, the pattern is there.

Senator MUSKIE. Is it logical to think of that as the ultimate evolution of the agency?

Mr. KANDLE. I don't know, sir. I think we will have to wait and

see.

Let me

Senator MUSKIE. Do you think that you will need an interstate or a metropolitan-wide enforcement agency in the field of air pollution? Mr. KANDLE. I don't think so, sir.

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for one moment. We live together. You know, we have so many problems of a similar kind, with regard to transportation and dozens of things, that we have developed a sort of modus operandi among ourselves, and part of it—which I think is healthyis that we compete.

For example, it would be difficult to get all of these agencies to have exactly the same standards, because we all look at it through our own eyes and with our own legislators.

Senator MUSKIE. Of course, you can have exactly the same standards of two similar pollution sources in the same jurisdiction.

Mr. KANDLE. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. But I am asking questions and not forming judgments.

It seems to me—and I state this simply for comment—that you are going to need some uniformity of performance in an area of this kind and some uniformity of enforcement in an area of this kind, because otherwise you can be played off against each other.

Mr. KANDLE. Precisely.
Senator MUSKIE. Isn't that so?

Mr. KANDLE. It is so, sir. But the thing that encourages me, Senator, is that we are making such good progress. I mean, there is a rivalry here which is a very healthy one.

Our commission works hard at getting its standards up. New York City sometimes moves a little ahead of us. New York State comes out at it from its point of view. These are tests. I mean, none of us want to be behind. So, we are stimulated by each other.

If you had the opportunity as I do to sit in on some of these discussions in our interstate committee, those boys go at it hammer and tongs. Each of the standards that are proposed are brought before the group and they are hammered out.

So that they are not in the sense of a compromise, but in a sense of “How far can we go?” and,“What can we do?" and, “Let us press on.” And sometimes, as New York City has often been a weather bell for

this area, we think now, as things stand now, that our standards are as good as the rest.

Senator MUSKIE. As you see the development of your regional effort, you think that it may never go beyond the consulting function?

I simply ask the question.

Mr. KANDLE. Well, I don't know the answer, Senator. I don't, as a practitioner of this art for 25 years, see the kind of machinery that could be very effective, except this kind of a machinery; that is, if all of us were to decide that we could not tolerate any fuel below a certain level of sulfur content, in order to enforce it, I think it would be enormously difficult unless the State enforcement agencies or the local enforcement agencies--when I say "State," I mean local, because I am the enforcer over there—they have to have weight, but we

Senator MUSKIE. Wouldn't it be more important for you to agree on exactly what kind of fuels would be permitted ?

Mr. KANDLE. Precisely. We have the same thing in clinical laboratories in serology and in dozens of ways in which we have solved these things over the years. It would be nonsense.

New York City would be cheated if we did not go along with them. So, we have to all work at our legislators.

Senator MUSKIE. So, is it necessary for you to agree on what pollution sources are to be controlled, how they are to be controlled, and that you feel that beyond that it is going to be necessary for each of the jurisdictions to actually implement these standards?

Mr. KANDLE. The only people who have put up the money and who really do abatement are the municipalities in the sense of the way they handle the sanitary land fill and the industry in which it actually operates its plants. So, somebody has to go around to those individual sources and enforce the law.

Now, when you get to the generic sources, like automobiles and fuels and some of these things, then we have all got to go at it together. But, it doesn't seem to me that we will need an overall law. It would be enormously difficult, because who is going to enforce it? It has to go right back to us local people, to the enforcers.

Senator MUSKIE. So that I understand your position, you agree that there should be agreement on performance standards, what sources are to be controlled, and how they are to be controlled!

Mr. KANDLE. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. An exchange of information as far as is possible technologically and as far as possible economically; but once you have reached agreement, then, that the actual implementation of those standards and that performance should be left to the individual States and the subdivisions?

Mr. KANDLE. Yes; and if we fail, just as we have in shellfish control and dozens of other places, the Federal boys come around here and spur us on and we fix it up.

Senator MUSKIE. I am sure that we can have a productive exchange here for a long time. But I do have to get on with the witness list.

May I again express my appreciation to all of you who were willing to come here and to subject yourselves to the probing questions of a U.S. Senator.

Mr. KANDLE. Your interest and attention is appreciated very much.

Senator MUSKIE. May I ask our next two witnesses who are on this list for this morning whether it would be convenient for them to return this afternoon some time? The time pressure is not quite as great this afternoon as it was this morning.

The next two are Dr. Colosi and Dr. Greenburg.
Would it be convenient for you to come back, Dr. Greenburg?
Dr. GREENBURG. Yes; if we don't stay too late, Mr. Senator.
Senator MUSKIE. We will put you on first.

Dr. GREENBURG. Thank you very much. But I don't want to deprive Dr. Colosi of his place.

Senator MUSKIE. Would that be convenient for you, Doctor Colosi?
Dr. Colosi. Yes.
Dr. GREENBURG. What time would we meet, then, Mr. Senator?

Senator MUSKIE. Well, you are both going with us to lunch, anyway. We will resume here at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., a recess was taken in the above-entitled matter to 2 p.m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Senator MUSKIE. The hearing will be in order.

May I suggest to all witnesses—and I hope that this is taken in the right spirit—that to the extent that you can, you highlight your prepared statement so that we can have as much time as possible for the exchange that we can get by asking questions.

But, if you feel that you cannot do justice to your statement by highlighting it, then, by all means, read it. But it would be helpful if we can get that kind of an exchange.

Your statement is not too long, Doctor, and I am not addressing what I have to say to you specifically.

So, then, may I introduce the first witness for the afternoon, Dr. Natale Colosi.

STATEMENT OF DR. NATALE COLOSI, CHAIRMAN, INTERSTATE

SANITATION COMMISSION Dr. Colosi. My name is Dr. Natale Colosi. I appreciate the opportunity to appear in my capacity as chairman of the Interstate Sanitation Commission to discuss our air pollution program.

The Interstate Sanitation Commission, an agency of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, conducts an active water pollution control program in their behalf on the tidal waters of the greater New York metropolitan area. For two of these States( New Jersey and New York), the commission also has engaged in air pollution work since January 1, 1962.

Previously, following proper legislation in New York and New Jersey, the Interstate Sanitation Commission conducted a study in the summer and fall of 1957 to determine whether there was an interstate air pollution problem. Dr. Louis C. McCabe was engaged by the commission as a consultant and he planned and directed the study. Mr. William H. Megonnell of the U.S. Public Health Service was project officer assigned to the study. Other agencies which took an active part in the execution of this study were the U.S. Weather Bureau, the U.S. Army Chemical Corps, and the U.S. Bureau of Standards.

Information from previous area surveys of air pollution conditions in the study were obtained from the New York and New Jersey State Departments of Health and the New York City Department of Air Pollution Control.

The Interstate Sanitation Commission completed and submitted a report in February 1958 of its findings that there was an interstate air pollution problem between the States of New York and New Jersey. The “Supplement Report on Proposed Interstate Air Pollution Control Legislation” was completed and submitted in January 1959.

The present Interstate Air Pollution Act was passed in 1961 and authorized the following activities:

(a) To conduct studies;
(6) To undertake research, testing, and development;

(c) To gather, exchange, and disseminate information with and among public and private bodies, persons, or organizations and to cooperate with any of them in solving air pollution problems;

(d) To take samplings, and to trace sources of air pollutants;

(e) To refer complaints to an appropriate agency or agencies of the States in which the sources are located and to which air pollutants are carried, along with such data and information as it may have obtained with respect to the nature, characteristics, source, path, and effect of air pollutants;

(f) Make recommendations and reports to the Governors and legislatures of the participating States.

Senator MUSKIE. Doctor, may I ask this: Was this legislation enacted by the Legislatures of New York and New Jersey ?

Dr. Čolosi. Of New York and New Jersey, yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. These activities were assigned to the Interstate Sanitation Commission?

Dr. COLOSI. By both States.

In water pollution abatement, the commission has water pollution standards and enforcement powers; but in air pollution, sources of pollution are referred to the appropriate enforcement agency in the State in which the pollutant originates.

Senator MUSKIE. Have you had any such referrals?
Dr. Colosi. Yes, we have.
Senator MUSKIE. What has been the volume of such referrals?
Dr. Colosi. May I refer to the engineer, who is more familiar?
Senator MUSKIE. Yes.
Mr. GLENN. About 50 in the past year.
Senator MUSKIE. How many?
Mr. GLENN. Fifty.
Senator Muskie. Fifty!
Mr. GLENN. Yes.
Senator MUSKIE. Do those involve industrial sources or other?
Mr. GLENN. The majority have been industrial sources.

Senator MUSKIE. Can you submit for the record a report on that enforcement activity ?

Mr. GLENN. Unfortunately, we cannot name the particular agencies, because our law is written that we are not allowed to.

Senator MUSKIE. I am not interested in names, but I would be interested in the types of problems.

Mr. GLENN. Yes, sir, we can do that very easily.

Dr. Colosi. In water pollution abatement, the commission has water pollution standards and enforcement powers but in air pollution,

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