In 1836, said also that no law should regulate the | could prove that, he was certain that the price of food. The Corn Laws were near highminded gentry of England would not their end. His family derived their income insist upon its being continued. from corn, and he knew that the head of it apprehended no danger from the repeal of the law; therefore, though he should support the measure of the right hon. Baronet, yet he must express a hope that it would not be long ere they should have a complete repeal of the Corn Laws. they had a Committee upon agricultural distress. At that time, they had some of the ablest and most intelligent tenantfarmers before them giving evidence. The Scotch farmers admitted that they might meet foreign competition. The English farmers thought they could not in the first place, on account of the burden of tithes; and at that time, the House would MR. BINGHAM BARING said, the hon. Member for Devonshire had expressed the opinion that, sooner or later, this ques-recollect, tithes had not been commuted ; tion would be carried. He should like to but whatever capital was expended on land, ask the hon. Baronet how much longer he one-tenth of the profits were paid over to wished the question to be agitated? Did the titheowner. How, then, was it possihe remember the Reform Bill? Did he ble for the English farmer to compete with know that if it had been settled betimes, the foreigner on fair grounds, when that they would never have had the heartburn- by which alone he could succeed-the ings which had followed it? Did he re- power and influence of his capital-was member the Catholic Relief Bill? The thus swamped. But since that period the measure of Emancipation began under Pitt tithes had been commuted. Then there as a party squabble; but at last it grew was another objection. They said they into a national quarrel, and God only knew could easily cultivate the good lands, but where that quarrel would end! And did the wet sour clay lands required proteche wish that this subject, which at present tion; and, besides, they were in many cases was a mere topic disputed in clubs-did he without good access to markets. But what wish that it should sink into men's hearts, had since taken place? The railways that and become a contest of classes-classes of were now extending over the country afproperty and of intelligence, each appealing forded every facility for the farmer bringto the passions and the prejudices of the ing his produce to market; chemical and people? Let them look at the history of artificial manures might be distributed the Corn Laws. He would not go back to through the country by the same means; those times when the Corn Laws were while the drainage, which was now carried rather intended to regulate exports than on to so great an extent, brought the wet imports when they prevented the pro-lands into good condition; so that all the obducer from selling in the dearest market, rather than the consumer from buying in the cheapest; but he would go at once to 1815. Previous to that, in the period of war, prices had risen, and a difficulty was found to provide food for the people. The landed interest was encouraged by all classes to invest their money in extending the cultivation of the poor lands. When peace came, and with it an influx of foreign corn, the nation, acting freely, and with the consent of all the leading statesmen of the day-the nation willingly consented to take upon itself the burden of the Corn Laws; and with a view to prevent the land going out of cultivation, and the labourer being thrown out of employment, these laws had been continued to the present day. But could they still be justified on that plea? That was the question. Could it be proved that it was now impossible to dispense with protection? He denied that it could. He thought he could prove that they might now dispense with protection; and if he jections of the tenant-farmers were now re- Debate again adjourned. House adjourned at a quarter past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, February 20, 1846. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Protection of Life (Ire land) (No. 2). PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Owners and Occupiers of Land, and others, interested in the Welfare of Agricul ture, in the Township of Crambe, and several other places, in favour of the Corn Laws.-From Inhabitants of Oulston, and several other places, for the Adoption of a Measure to prevent the Unconstitutional Proceedings of the Anti-Corn-Law League, in relation to the Corn Laws. -From the Township of Hutton Low Cross, and several other places, for Protection to the Agricultural Interest. MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND). lics, Presbyterians, Dissenters, or belongLORD CAMPBELL, in pursuance of ing to that very small minority of the Notice, presented to their Lordships a pe- country, the Protestant Episcopal Church, tition of very great importance. The pe- who were all compelled to contribute to the tition was from the inhabitants of the city maintenance of the Episcopal Protestant of Cork, and emanated from a public meet-pastor within the town. They considered ing called for the purpose in that city. It this as a great grievance, because they was signed by the mayor, all the aldermen, were obliged to maintain their own pastors, and so large a number of the inhabitants, and to support the fabrics where divine that the postage of the petition, as charged worship was performed according to their to him (Lord Campbell), amounted to 8., own tenets. They felt that it was a very which, by the liberality of the Government, heavy charge, but their Lordships would be and the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of St. surprised when he mentioned the small Germans) had been remitted. The peti- amount in reality. They deemed it, howtioners, after alluding to the pledge so- ever, an insult that they should be obliged lemnly given by the Monarch in both to contribute at all to the maintenance of Houses of Parliament, that Irish grievances the Episcopal Protestant clergy in Ireland. should be redressed, ventured to lay before But the House were aware that it was conthe House what they considered a very sidered so great a grievance that almost great evil the payment of what was called every successive Secretary for Ireland had "Ministers' Money" in Ireland. Now, so admitted it, and expressed his regret that it little was that subject known in England, could not be remedied. He did not rememthat, since he had entered the House, heber what the noble Lord opposite had said had been asked by a noble Peer of very great information and intelligence, whether the petition was against the Regium Donum given by the Crown to the Presbyterian Dissenters in Ireland. The petitioners did not at all interfere with that, and, as far as he was aware, they by no means wished that that grant should be intercepted or diminished; but their desire was to lay before the House a very heavy grievance, personal and peculiar to themselves. In the reign of Charles II., what he (Lord Campbell) must consider a very arbitrary Act was passed, by which the inhabitants of certain corporate towns in Ireland were subjected to a personal tax for the maintenance of the ministers of the Episcopal Protestant religion in that country. He (Lord Campbell) insisted upon it-subject to any answer which might be given to the statement that it was a personal tax. It was not all like tithes, which, whether they were or were not a burden upon the land, certainly were no burden upon the landholder, who purchased only nine-tenths of the land, and not the remaining one-tenth, or whatever the proportion might be, and was not in the slightest degree aggrieved by the payment of tithes, which ought to be held for ever sacred. Ministers' Money was a tax upon the inhabitants of the towns, not at all like church rates, which he (Lord Campbell) remembered had, by a noble Lord opposite, been traced back to the time of Canute; but it was a modern tax, placed upon all the inhabitants of towns, whether they were Roman CathoVOL. LXXXIII. {Series} Third upon the subject; but the noble Lord near 2 S He to bring that establishment into direct | Those parts of the cities that were inhabodium. The tax was for ecclesiastical ited by the wealthy people in ancient times, purposes; and any ecclesiastical property were now inhabited by the lower classes; that could be discovered applicable to the the rates remained the same as when first purpose should be forthwith applied. He imposed; and they were not unfrequently trusted that their Lordships would listen levied by distress, and the goods and chatfavourably to the prayer of the petition. tels of the poor people sold to pay the They had been informed by Her Majesty's amount. There were clergymen who could Ministers that on Monday next they would afford to relinquish a portion of their indisclose their policy with regard to Ireland. comes; and the law had consequently not It would give him (Lord Campbell), along been put in force against these unfortunate with any measure which might be proposed people by them; but there were others for the amelioration of the unhappy state among the clergy who really could not of Ireland at the present time, great plea- afford to make such sacrifices, and in such sure to see some remedy for this particular cases the greatest hardship had been ingrievance. The declaration that conces-flicted. It was, therefore, most desirable sion had reached its utmost limits to Ireland, that some remedy should be applied. It had been very handsomely retracted. He was not, however, very easy to find funds believed that the right hon. Gentleman out of which that tax could be paid, and who made that statement was perfectly willing that a grand conflagration should take place in Palace Yard, and that all the volumes of "Hansard" should be burned; he himself being ready to apply the torch to the funeral pile. He (Lord Campbell) was sure that the removal of this grievance would have a favourable tendency upon the popular mind. He believed that it might be said of the Ministers' Money "My wound is great because it is so small," because it had been thought that the tax was held over the heads of the Roman Catholics and Presbyterians there, not for the sake of emolument, but as a mark of their continued degradation. it would be necessary to provide some other means for the maintenance of the Protestant clergy in those cities. He had turned his attention to the subject; but when he quitted office his plans were not matured. He was not able to say whether or not Her Majesty's Government were engaged in considering any measure for the removal of this grievance. He admitted it was practically a great grievance; but he denied that it was to be regarded either as an insult or an injury to the people of Ireland. LORD CAMPBELL felt great satisfaction at what had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down; but would not enter into any theoretical discussion as to whether it was or was not a grievance in principle. The EARL of ST. GERMANS admitted that it was a practical grievance, but he dif- Lord STANLEY also differed from the fered from the noble Lord when he stated that noble Lord as to the Ministers' Money it was a grievance in principle. The noble being a personal tax. It was a tax as and learned Lord had referred to the estab- much to be levied on house property in lishment of the tax in the time of Charles town, as tithes were upon landed property II., and had stated it to be considered a in the country. It stood precisely on the mark of insult and degradation; but he same footing. It was, in its nature, an had not adverted to the fact, that at that ad valorem tax charged upon every house period the Roman Catholics were not capa- within corporate towns, for the maintenance ble of holding property, and, consequently, of the clergy in those towns. Exactly in the tax fell exclusively upon the Protestant the same manner as the payment of tithes inhabitants in those towns. It had only caused a diminished value to be given for been of comparatively recent date that the landed property, so to that extent did the Roman Catholics had been capable of hold-payment of the fixed amount of Ministers' ing property; but now, they were capable of so doing, they acquired their houses subject to the payment of that tax-so that in point of principle it was a less strong case than that of tithe. It was, however, unquestionably a great practical grievance; it was leviable on the occupiers, not on the owners of property in towns; and it fell upon the poorer portions of the population. Money deduct from the value of houses. If they gave any relief, in the shape of throwing the burdens upon the national of any other funds, the relief so given would be, in point of fact, a relief to the large proprietors within the towns from burdens which, when they purchased the property, they perfectly well understood it to be liable. He (Lord Stanley) could not, for a great improvement. But as he (Lord Stanley) did not feel in 1836, he did not feel now in 1846, that Ministers' Money, whether paid in Ireland, London, or Edinburgh, was a charge which the owners of property in large towns had a right to expect to be relieved from, or that it was a burden to be thrown upon the general community, who were charged with the maintenance of the clergy at home precisely in the same manner as the property in the town was charged. LORD MONTEAGLE did not understand that the abolition of this mode of payment was proposed without an equivalent. Indeed, of all classes of the Irish clergy, the parochial clergy in some of the older parts of the corporate towns were just the class least remunerated in proportion to their labours. But though the principle of this tax was the same with that of tithes, the operation was grievously different, for it fell upon poor persons, who could sometimes only pay it by the sale of their household furniture; it was an old tax, not adapt his own part, see why property of that description should be relieved from burdens which the present proprietors and their predecessors had been subjected to ever since the reign of Charles II. The present question was precisely similar to that of tithes, and more especially to that of the commuted tithes. The noble and learned Lord had said that it did not differ from the vestry cess; but this was a payment regulated by law; the vestry cess was a tax fixed by the authorities with the consent of the several parishes in respect to it. But there was this peculiar grievance, that the vestry cess was a tithe charge upon all the inhabitants of the parish, for the purposes of the inhabitants generally, but levied exclusively by the votes of the Protestant inhabitants of the parish. It therefore partook of the character of a tax paid by those who had no voice in its imposition, at the same time being of uncertain amount and not regulated by law. There was also this distinction between the present tax and the vestry cess, that the vestry cess was a voluntary tax in aid, the fund which was ined to modern times, and instead of being the first instance derivable from the first- ad valorem, it was contra valorem, falling fruits and tenths being insufficient for the upon those parts of a town which were the sustentation of the fabrics; but the clergy poorest. It was, therefore, infinitely worse were exempted from first-fruits and tenths than tithes; and a remedy ought to be at the time when the vestry cess was abo- found. Many clergymen, it seemed, felt lished, leaving elsewhere the charge neces-obliged to give up their due, under this syssary for keeping up the fabrics. He trusted tem; but that was not a right position for he had shown the noble and learned Lord them to be placed in. that the present tax, if he would not admit it to be of the same character as tithe, stood upon an entirely different footing from vestry cess. It was a relief to the parish to a certain extent to take off the charges upon first-fruits and tenths. If they relieved the proprietors of houses in great towns from this payment, they stripped the clergy of the only provision for their maintenance, just as much so as though the landed proprietors were to be relieved from He Petition read and ordered to lie on the Table. The House adjourned at a quarter to Six. www HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] NEW MEMBERS SWORN.-For Suffolk (Eastern Division), Edward Sherlock Gooch, Esq.; for Dorset, John Floyer, Esq.; for Dorset, Henry Ker Seymer, Esq.; for Westminster, Sir De Lacy Evans. the payment of tithe, and the payment of PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from tithe was provided for out of the funds of the State. He could not see any sufficient reason for making the exemption. agreed with his noble Friend (Lord St. Germans) that it was a practical grievance. The payment of these small sums from the occupiers of small houses should be deducted from the payment to the landlord. If any mode could be adopted by which this tax could be commuted, or any plan could be suggested wherein it could be levied together with other municipal rates, or if it could be made a tax upon the owners of property in towns, he believed it would be an immense number of places, against any Diminution of the Protection hitherto granted to Agriculture.-By Mr. Wakley, from Watchmakers of Clerkenwell and its Vicinity, for a Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn Laws. By several hon. Members, from various places, against the proposed Measures respecting Customs and Corn Importation.-By several hon. Members, from a great number of places, for a Repeal of the Corn Laws.— By Mr. Bright, from Minister of the Congregational Independent Church, and Congregations of Protestant Dissenters, in the Parishes of Bicester and Launton, for Commercial Reform.-By Lord Rendlesham, from Frances Sarah Barlee, of Duke's Bridge House, Bungay, for Redress against certain Proceedings in the Court of Chancery, &c.-By Colonel Fox, from Inhabitants of Poplar, for Remission of Sentence upon William S. Ellis.-By Mr. Blackburne, from Inhabitants of Warrington and Upton-upon-Severn, against Enrolment of the Militia.By Colonel Fox, from Inhabitants of Poplar, for Remis sion of Sentence upon Frost, Williams, and Jones.-By | lieved there was every disposition on the Mr. Aldam, from Inhabitants of the Borough of Leeds, for Peace with America, and against Enrolment of the Militia. part of hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House to give every facility to Irish railway business in the present state of the country; and he believed that the Motion he had to propose would tend greatly to RAILWAY BILLS (IRELAND). The O'CONOR DON rose to move"That it be an Instruction to the Select Com-effect the object which all had in view. Imittee on Petitions that in all cases of Irish Rail way Bills, wherein the promoters shall have proved compliance with the Standing Orders in the House of Lords, they do give priority to the investigation of the compliance with the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, applicable to such Bills, over all other cases which may stand for enquiry before them, provided due notice of the sitting of the Committee for such purpose has been given, and that the promoters of such Bill propose to prove the compliance with the Standing Orders either wholly or in part by viva voce evidence." MR. GROGAN seconded the Motion; he said that he had put a notice of Motion on the book with a similar intention to that of his hon. Friend. His Motion was "That it be an instruction to the Committee on Petitions for Private Bills that a Sub-Committee for the consideration of petitions for Irish Railway Bills be appointed." It was not the object of either his hon. Friend or himself to delay the business connected with England by that Motion. On the contrary, it was calculated to facilitate the business of all. MR. O'CONNELL did not know why the Motion should extend only to Railway Bills. He did not see why all Private Bills connected with Ireland should not be included. He should, therefore, beg leave to move, if the Motion were persisted in, as an Amendment, that instead of the words, words "in all cases of Irish Private Bills," should be inserted. LORD GRANVILLE SOMERSET, though exceedingly anxious to facilitate Irish railway business as much as possible, thought that the Motion could hardly be acceded to. Before it could be agreed to, he should like to hear the opinion of the Chairman of the Committee on Private Bills, as to whether the Committee had not already actually the power to advance any Bills they should think fit. He did not object to the principle of the Motion, but he believed that it would be found practically to be unnecessary. He begged to observe that when he had given notice of his intention to submit that Motion to the House, he was not aware that the hon. Member for Dublin had given notice of a similar one. Their objects were the same. They were both desirous of affording facilities to the progress of Irish railways. It was known that all Irish railways were obliged to commence in the House of Lords, that the witnesses should necessarily wait until they had given their" In all cases of Irish Railway Bills," the evidence again in the House of Commons. Now, the delay would be productive of very great expense and inconvenience if those witnesses should be compelled to stay in London until that case in which they were engaged should have come down in regular order. The object which his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin and he himself had in view, was, that those witnesses should have an opportunity of at once giving their evidence, that so they might be released from further attendance. In the case of English Bills, the parties could reckon very nearly upon the certainty of the day on which they might be expected to be in attendance; but in the case of Irish Bills MR. STRUTT, as the Chairman of the they could not calculate upon their time. Committee alluded to by the noble Lord, The hon. Gentleman stated the case of the begged to say that he believed the Comcounty surveyor of Wexford, who was ob-mittee had the power to make a selection, liged, after giving his evidence before the and recommend the advancement of any Lords' Committee, to go over to attend the particular Bill; but at the same time he assizes in the county of Wexford, and then should say that the Committee would feel to return immediately to London, at very the greatest reluctance and difficulty in great inconvenience. He instanced another giving priority to any one or any class, or case, in which no fewer than one hundred taking any out of the ordinary course, and eighty-four other Railway Bills inter- without receiving some special notice from vened between the one in which a friend the House, or some positive intimation of of his was engaged, and the one under hear-its desire that such a course should be ing; and yet all the witnesses were com- adopted. The Committee had, as the pelled to remain in London at an enormous House was fully aware, a vast number of expense until the case should have been Bills before them. There was an accumudisposed of. He (The O'Conor Don) be-lation of business altogether unprece |