that the question would be set at rest, agi- | extremely sorry to hear that the right hon. tation would cease, and the country would prosper better under a Ten Hours' Bill than it had done under the twelve hours' system.

beings who could not protect themselves: and was not this the business of legislation? The wealthy and intelligent, and those of mental and physical vigour, could protect themselves; it was the infant that sued for succour in this case; and every one who

Baronet had given an intimation to the House that he should oppose the Bill. His hon. and learned Friend was an advocate for the representation of the working classes; MR. WAKLEY begged to ask the right and he had always advocated the widest hon. Gentleman opposite, if, after hearing extension of the suffrage; he had thought the speech of the hon. Member who had that the working classes ought to be rejust resumed his seat, his opinions had not presented here, and it would delight him undergone a change? His hon. Friend the to see the working men voting in that Member for Oldham was one of the most House. The speeches of some of them experienced, most wealthy, most intelli- would be no disgrace to that Assembly; gent, and most humane men in the king- more splendid speeches, indicative of nadom—a man universally respected, and one tural eloquence, he had never heard; and who had ever been the friend of the poor. he trusted the day would come when they He was a practical man, not a mere theo- would be heard in that Assembly. Suprist, who would run through granite after posing the working people to have been a principle. He was not so bigotedly at- adequately represented in that House, how tached to what was called principle as to many Sessions would pass over before there refuse to change his opinion, or to resist was a Ten Hours' Bill? It would be passed the conclusions to which facts would lead in the first Session; it would take precehim. The question was, whether infants dence of everything else. But did the in this country were to be sacrificed to a noble Lord, the Mover of the Bill, ask for principle? The hon. Member for Oldham, a Ten Hours' Bill with reference to the he understood, was at the head of a firm working classes generally? Nothing of which employed thousands of hands; in his the kind; all he asked was the interference establishment was wrought up nearly one-of the Legislature to protect those infant hundredth part of the cotton imported into this country; and what did he say? Surely, the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department would not be insensible to the effect of that speech which the hon. Member had delivered. The right hon. Baronet had intimated that his opin-had paid any attention to the subject, who ions on this subject were unaltered. Did he not think it rash to make such a statement, after what had lately passed in that House? He must be permitted to say that it was rash and unphilosophical. It was proved now that men could bend their minds to circumstances; that men who had set out with a principle could deviate and adopt a very different course, when reason intimated that it was for the general good to do so. He gave the right hon. Baronet opposite full credit for the sincerity of his change of opinion on the Corn Law question; nothing could be more invidious, or more irrational, than to charge men with dishonesty, because they changed their opinions. In his opinion, that was a disgusting charge, and one altogether unfitted for a legislative assembly. Infinitely worse, and infinitely more dishonest would it be, for a man when his opinions were changed, to utter a falsehood within the walls of that House. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would apply his mind seriously to the subject, and reflect upon the facts that had been adduced for his information. He was

knew what was the condition of our over. worked population, must anticipate, with the greatest possible joy and satisfaction, the success of the noble Lord's Bill. If they wished a horse to be a perfect animal, how was it treated when young? Did they begin to work it at two, or three, or even at four years old? If this were done, its physical development would be checked; and the laws of animal life were, in this respect, the same in all. Everybody knew that, in our manufacturing towns, the physical system was becoming imperfect; that was universally acknowledged by all writers on the subject. There was not a medical writer who had devoted his attention to the question who did not express his fears for the results to this country, should the system continue of working the young as we now did. The principles of physiology were the same in all animal life; and the imperfection that must arise from this system would be most deplorable in its effects on the people of this country. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, had stated in his speech that he adhered firmly

to the principle involved; but he had after- | they had adopted; he deeply lamented that wards knocked down his own arguments, they had cast aside a weightier and still and had completely tripped himself up. more extensive measure than the one proThe hon. Gentleman had declared his rea- posed; but he trusted that, if only in this diness to interfere with reference to mental little item, they would be warned by expeeducation, and yet refused to support the rience-by the experience of the manufacnoble Lord, whose Bill went at once to turers to whom this Bill principally related, promote that object, by raising the physical and the experience of one whose medical condition of the working classes. In this knowledge gave him a good claim to be case he had completely abandoned his prin- heard. ciple. He hoped the noble Lord would be MR. S. CRAWFORD said, he could industrious in the collection of his facts- not allow the Bill to be introduced without that he would not garble them, but quote expressing the favourable sentiments he fairly. Let him adduce all the facts he entertained towards it. He represented a possibly could in reference to this question. manufacturing town, where the cotton and He hoped the right hon. Gentleman oppo-woollen manufactures were extensively carsite would bring a candid and unprejudiced mind to the investigation of the subject; and if he did so, he must come to the same conclusion as the noble Lord.

ried on; and when the noble Lord proposed his measure on a former occasion, he had taken the pains to make himself acquainted with the feelings of the manufacturing classes of that town, and he was convinced that the working classes were strongly in favour of a reduction of the hours of labour by the Legislature. On that ground, he had supported the noble Lord all in his power; and he had seen nothing since, and heard no argument on the present occasion, to induce him to alter his opinion. He trusted most sincerely that the object of the noble Lord would be attained, and that the working classes would be thereby greatly benefited.

Mr. NEWDEGATE rejoiced to hear the speech that the hon. Member for Finsbury had just made. It did him good to hear that theoretical principle was not to be allowed to overbear the experience of many years in the Legislature; and that the people of this country might still hope that our representative system furnished them enough of experienced men to set at nought theory and its mischiefs. He trusted that the right hon. Home Secretary would consider the relation of this measure to those which Her Majesty's Government had introduced. He had, perhaps, cast aside long experience in favour of theory in that matter; but let him well weigh this consideration, whether, when he was about to introduce the competition of the world with the labourers of this country, it would not be well to afford them some protection; and whether their claim to protection was not strengthened by the force of competition which was about to be brought against them. Allusion had been made to America, the great increase of whose manufac-negative, proceeded.] He had to complain tures seemed to threaten a severe competition with our own products. Were the labourers there not protected; and was not the protection afforded to their products the means of enabling the masters there to give relaxation and shorter hours of labour to their operatives? If the Government of this country reversed the case-removed protection, and increased competition-had not the noble Lord a still better claim on the Legislature for protection to the operatives of this country? He trusted that Government would reconsider this question before the Bill came to a second reading. He deeply lamented the course

LORD ASHLEY, in reply, said he would now refer to two statements made by the hon. Member for Durham. The statements which had reference to the increased rate of speed of Mr. Gardner's mills, he, on the best authority, had reason for believing to be incorrect. As to the other statement, he had requested the hon. Member for Durham to wait until he had explained the circumstance to which he had referred. [The noble Lord inquired if the hon. Member was in the House, and having been informed in the

of great discourtesy on the part of the hon.
Member for Durham, who, having made a
charge against him—a charge of a personal
nature had not remained in the House to
hear his reply to it, though he had been
requested by him (Lord Ashley) to do so.
The circumstance to which the hon. Mem-
ber alluded was briefly this.
before last he was in Lancaster, on a visit
with the hon. Member for Oldham; and it
occurred to him that, as he was within a
short distance of Rochdale, where were
situated the mills of the hon. Member for
Durham, he might as well go over there.
He believed himself to be perfectly conver-

The year

SIR J. GRAHAM quite concurred with the hon. Member who had just spoken, in thinking it most desirable that such a do

sant with all the operations of mills, and | turns on that subject. He did not wish therefore did not deem it necessary to add to any new return, but wished the right hon. his experience by an additional inspection Baronet to have a statement compiled on of the mills at Rochdale; but he visited them one sheet from those already existing. simply and solely that he might see the hon. Member, or leave his name, because the hon. Member having attacked him in the House in a way which was highly unjus-cument as he had alluded to should be in tifiable, he thought he would be acting, in colloquial phrase, "like a gentlemen," to show him that he entertained no resentment towards him, and wished to meet him on friendly terms. He saw the hon. Gentleman's brother on his arrival-conversed for half an hour with him, but said that he did not think it necessary to go over the mills. Why did he say so? Because he was afraid, had he done so, that it would have been said by the hon. Member that he wanted to spy out some defect, or discover some mismanagement in their arrangement: that, he solemnly declared, was the reason he did not inspect them. He could not help, therefore, stating that he thought the hon. Member for Durham had travelled a little out of the record, when he stated that he was one-sided in all his statements because he had not gone over his mills; for he could assure the House that he had given them the whole history of the case. Leave given. Bill brought in, and reading any opinion on the subject. The hon. a first time.

LOCAL TAXATION.

MR. WODEHOUSE having asked leave to withdraw a Notice, relative to returns of the amount of certain local rates, for this day, and to renew it for Monday next,

the hands of the House; but at the same time was of opinion that for such a return to be useful, it was absolutely necessary it should be accurate. Ilis hon. Friend had consented to withdraw his Motion, for the purpose of allowing time to confer with the authorities at Somerset House. Any one who had read the very able Report on Local Taxation would know that there were no less than twenty-two local rates, levying 12,000,000l. a year. Under the head of the burdens on land, therefore, there would not only be those twenty-two local rates, but the borough rates, as well as all the local rates under the various local Acts. To present all those within a fortnight in one accurate view, was far beyond any means which Government possessed, and he was afraid, were they to attempt to carry it out, so far from the result leading to any accurate conclusion, it would impede the judgment of the House in form

Member for Wolverhampton had moved for an extensive return of a similar nature, and but three-fourths of the necessary documents had yet reached the Home Office. There were about 16,000 different local highway rates levied, and of those the returns of 12,000 only had been obtained up to the present time. The preparation of the return obtained by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton had occupied nearly a twelvemonth, and he thought the hon. Gentleman must admit that a perfect return could not be made out in the course of a fortnight.

MR. F. T. BARING thought that if the information already existing in the public offices could be presented at one view, it would be a very valuable document.

MR. F. T. BARING begged to express his opinion that it would be much better if the whole subject of local taxation, its extent and details, were contained in one paper, than exhibited in various returns, such as the one just postponed. He hoped the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, would accede to that suggestion. He did not ask him for any fresh information, but merely to get that information which they already possessed arranged in a proper form by some public department, by which it would be much better performed than in any other way. It was desirable that the whole statement of local taxation, amounting to 16,000,0007., should be laid before the House from the documents already existing; for it would be better to possess the information desirable for them even in an MR. F. FRENCH said, he understood it imperfect form, than to be compelled to had been intimated last Session that some look through the whole of the various re-inquiry should be instituted by Her MaVOL. LXXXIII. {} Third

Series}

MR. HUME said, it was a reflection on the Government that so much confusion should prevail on the subject, and suggested that the 16,000 existing rates might be reduced to two or three. Leave given-Notice withdrawn.

Р

POOR LAW (IRELAND).

for ten days by the Sardinian Government, and praying for redress. The petitioner could assign no reason for his detention, except that his name was the same as that of the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department.

RAILWAY BUSINESS.

LORD KINNAIRD rose pursuant to Notice, to move for

port, gave full satisfaction to the parties. Another point he thought worthy of their Lordships' attention, was that portion of the Standing Orders which led to the desecration of the Sabbath. He was not then alluding to what had taken place on the 30th of November, as he believed that but in Scotland it was imperative that was unforeseen and wholly unavoidable; railway notices should be posted on the "A Return of the Amount of Fees incurred by church doors, at which for three succesthe Introduction of Railway Bills into this House during the last Session of Parliament, and by sive Sundays the persons posting were petition against such Bills, and how applied; dis- obliged to present themselves, in order tinguishing those paid on each Bill." that they might swear to the fact of their His object, he said, in moving for these being so posted. The consequence was, Returns was to draw their Lordships' at- that during the last year all the vehicles tention, if possible, to the great expenses in the country were in complete commoand great hardship attending opposition to tion for three Sundays, to the great anRailway Bills when they affected private noyance of the people. He thought a property. No man would rejoice more Committee might find out a way in which than himself at the spread of railways, or much of this might be avoided. The extheir advance in public opinion; but at the pense of serving notices was in his opinion same time they should be carried on as also needless; he thought advertisements much as possible without violating the in the public papers would be quite suffirights of private property. At present, cient. There was one point on which he the expense of opposing Railway Bills was could not avoid attaching blame to the increased one-third by the fees of that Government--he meant their mode of actHouse; indeed, the expenses attending ing as regarded railway deposits. Many every stage of a Railway Bill's progress persons, not at all interested in railways, were enormous. He could mention one had been much embarrassed by the withinstance of a railway in which the esti-drawal of accommodation at the bankers, mated expense of construction was 200,000l. who were obliged to keep all their floating where all the proprietors along the line cash for the Accountant General. were consenting parties, and yet where, in could see no objection to receiving the deconsequence of the opposition of a compet-posits in the shape of Exchequer bills and ing company, the Parliamentary expenses amounted to 15,000l. He thought, therefore, that the subject was well worthy their Lordships' consideration, and that some good might be done at that early period of the Session by the appointment of a Committee to investigate the matter. He thought that something might be done by the appointment of a Commission or Board, without at all interfering with the authority of Parliament. Some controlling authority was most necessary at present, when so many competing lines were coming into operation, and accidents more likely to happen than before. He knew that at present several accidents had occurred which were concealed by the companies, but which might be avoided by one uniform system of management. The plan he was now suggesting had been last year tried by the Commons with success. Three or four disputed cases were referred to the Board of Trade; experienced officers were appointed to examine and report, and the decision of the Board, founded on that re

He

Government securities, the object of requiring the deposit being merely to prove that the scheme was bona fide; and for this purpose such deposits were as good as Bank of England notes. He understood that one company would lose very largely in consequence of their being obliged to convert their Exchequer bills into cash to meet their deposits. With respect to the special subject of this Motion, he begged to mention one case, in which the expenses of the Bill being 500l., the fees of that House amounted to 300l. The noble Lord concluded by moving for the Returns recited at the commencement of his observations.

Motion agreed to.-Returns ordered.

AMERICAN TARIFF.

LORD MONTEAGLE, seeing the noble Earl, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in his place, begged to ask him, with reference to an important State Paper which had recently been received from the United States, and which had been quoted