Mr. McMANUS. Yes. While they want to buy from you, they are afraid to because of the fact that if they ever see other lines of parts on their shelves, then they catch the devil from the supervisor or the man who is calling on them.

Mr. FORISTEL. What do you suggest as a remedy?

Mr. MCMANUS. The oil companies are primarily in the petroleum products business. If they stay in that business and leave the other end of the business open for free competition, then we would have an opportunity to sell these, instead of using that position as landlord and lessor to put the pressure on them so that the man feels he has to buy because he will be discriminated against and lose his lease, and so forth, if he does not. If they segregated them, then everybody will have an opportunity.

Mr. FORISTEL. Do you have anything further?

Mr. MCMANUS. No.

(Witness excused.)

Mr. FABER. There is one remark I would like to repeat. One company salesman, in calling on some dealers in Milwaukee, made this statement. He said, "Mr. Faber can give us trouble through these investigations, but, remember, next year we will have a Republican Government and we will take over and run these stations as we please again."

Mr. STEVENSON. Let us not worry about the politics of the situation at this time.

STATEMENT OF K. C. KAING ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL OIL JOBBERS COUNCIL

Mr. FORISTEL. State your name.

Mr. KAING. K. C. Kaing, secretary, National Oil Jobbers Council; secretary of the Wisconsin Petroleum Association.

Mr. FORISTEL. You may proceed.

Mr. KAING. We had expected, Mr. Foristel, to have Mr. Fiore here.
Mr. FORISTEL. He has been here and he has already testified.
Mr. KAING. Oh, I see. He skipped me along the line.

Our National Oil Jobbers Council represents approximately 10,000 independent jobbers throughout the entire country. I do not want to take up too much of the time of the committee. It is a repetition. practically of what has been brought out by the retailers as far as coercion, and tie-in sales with T. B. A. items and all the rest of it are concerned.

We are the independent jobbers or wholsalers of petroleum products, representing in a good many instances the major oil companies as far as their products are concerned. There are three types of independent jobbers.

There is the one who handles the major company product, the individually branded jobber who goes out on the open market and buys from independent refiners and markets at the so-called market price, and then there is the one who is below the market price, or in other words, they call him in the industry the cut-rater.

This testimony has appeared many times before your committee from other sources. From a national standpoint, we have run into it all over the country, not only here in Wisconsin, but it has happened from Alabama to Minnesota to Maine and all over.

We have attempted in our own way without going to congressional committees to work these problems out ourselves. The two major problems right at this particular time are supply, which is tight, not short, and the marginal question which the jobber operates on. I think the supply situation will take care of itself. We will have spot shortages this coming winter here in Wisconsin. The main problem is to see that the independent jobber who supplies a great many of the retailers gets his equitable share of any available product.

Mr. FORISTEL. We heard a group in Washington headed by Mr. Peck and Mr. Faber who testified the same day. This was about the time the new oil code was being proposed to the Attorney General for approval under Public Law 395. Through the efforts of our committee we had the words included, "Production at all levels." I think that will do a job for you fellows.

Mr. KAING. Yes. We were in on that together with Mr. Hadley and Mr. White of Virginia. I did not happen to be at that particular meeting.

That is one of the main problems and particularly here in Wisconsin we have found that they are not living up to that agreement. I have figures to prove that. We have taken it up directly with the particular companies and in most cases it has been corrected. I just want for the record to have these matters presented. Mr. Fiore really was the independent jobber in business who wanted to testify. Mr. STEVENSON. We thank you.

(Witness excused.)

Mr. STEVENSON. I want to thank the witnesses who have appeared before us this morning. We appreciate the splendid turn-out and the interest that has been shown in the work of the Special Committee on Small Business of the House of Representatives.

As I said in the beginning, this is the bringing to you of a committee from the National Capital. We are continuing these hearings at other places. The members of our committee, Democrats and Republicans alike, are working solely in the interests of the small-business men of the United States. If you observed closely the way we carry on and what we have accomplished, you would not know from our actions, our words, and our recommendations whether we were of two parties or only one. Our work is for the interest of the small-business men of the United States.

I want you all to know that. That is why we are here. We are very proud to be on this committee and I am particularly glad that you have taken advantage of this opportunity to present your testimony and to come in and listen to the testimony of those who have appeared before us.

If there is nothing further the hearing is closed.

(Whereupon, at 2 p. m. the hearing in the foregoing matter was closed.)

MONOPOLISTIC AND UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1948

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE No. 2 OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS, South Bend, Ind.

The subcommittee met in the Federal Courthouse Building, South Bend, Ind., at 10 a. m., the Honorable Walter Ploeser (chairman), presiding.

Present: Representatives Ploeser (chairman), Grant, and Hardy. Also Present: James W. Foristel, Executive Director and Willis J. Ballinger, Economic Counsel.

Chairman PLOESER. The committee will come to order.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think I should explain for the benefit of everyone here that this is one of a series of hearings being conducted by the Committee on Small Business of the House of Representatives on the subject of unfair trade practices and monopolistic tendencies that may be injurious to our economy and particularly to small business. The committee began these hearings in the State of Montana, continued them in Wyoming, Utah, Nebraska, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. This will be the only Indiana hearing. From here, the committee goes to Kentucky, then on to Oklahoma and Texas.

We are hopeful that we can gather sufficient information so that in this current year of the committee's work with the next Congress we may be able to make an intelligent report to the Congress; First, on whether or not the present antitrust laws are sufficient; and second, whether if they should not be considered adequate, what might be done to strengthen them.

It is the duty of this committee, specifically designated by law, to work on behalf of small business. Just when small business begins is rather difficult. There have been many definitions. We are inclined to believe that it takes into its field all business which is independently operated, and that size is more or less comparative. What may be small business in one field may seem like large business in another field.

So we draw on line of differentiation between where smallness stops and bigness begins. That is rather difficult to do. We do feel it is our praticular job, a prejudice job, if you please, to fight the small-business man's battle within the limits of our capacity and ability.

We are instructed by law to do that. We have tried to carry that task forward and hope that we can make a real contribtuion to our economy.

I want to introduce the gentlemen who are with the committee this morning.

On my right is Mr. Porter Hardy, Jr., of Virginia. May I say that he is the newest member of the committee, not quite 1 month old as a member. He succeeds Estes Kefauver of Tennessee who resigned from the committee after his nomination for the United States Senate. On my left and to the front is Robert A. Grant, of this district in Indiana, who has been a particular friend to this committee. He is a member of the great Ways and Means Committee in the House of Representatives. As you may well recognize, we need friends occasionally on the Ways and Means Committee, because that committee handles the tax problems of the Nation. Small business, unfortunately, does have a perpetual problem in the field of taxes. Mr. Grant has been, in a sense, an auxiliary member of this committee in that we have been able to bother him over the years as a member of the Ways and Means Committee to give us aid.

On my left is Mr. Foristel, who is executive director of the committee, and on my right is Mr. Willis Ballinger, economic counsel of the committee and in charge of this particular study. Over on my right is Mr. Leo Cullinane, special investigator of the city.

Those of you who get to Washington occasionally may know Mr. Milberg, who sits in front of us, a crack reporter of the House of Representatives. He goes along with our committee, I think, to keep in condition for the more arduous winter season.

It is a pleasure to be here and we appreciate your hospitality which began on Saturday. Whether you were for Purdue or for Notre Dame, it was a great game.

Mr. Ballinger, you may proceed.

Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Grant has a statement which he would like to present to the committee.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT A. GRANT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN

CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF INDIANA

Mr. GRANT. Mr. Chairman and my friends of the Middle West, all of whom are interested in the problems of small business. I understand we have a very heavy schedule for today, so for my part I will be very brief. At the outset, I do want to say I am happy to welcome this Committee on Small Business of the Huose of Representatives to South Bend. Chairman Ploeser is one of my closest friends in Congress, and for a long time I have greatly admired his ability.

This committee comes to my city engaged in one of the most important investigations and studies ever undertaken, in my opinion, by a committee of Congress.

Millions of Americans are justifiably alarmed by the activities of Communists in America. Another committee of the House has done a courageous job in opening the eyes of our people to their infiltration into the Federal Government, their destructive designs on our freedom and our way of life. But, turning a spotlight on Communists in America, disclosing their private and public lairs in business, labor unions, and important posts of Government, is only a part of the battle to keep America safe from the agents of a foreign power. Another job must also be done.

Capitalism in the United States must continue to furnish the American people with such a high standard of living that they cannot pos