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two burgesses who should set the law in | by its introduction in a matter of such motion should be bound to find security comparatively trifling importance. Не for the cost before the proceedings were mentioned these objections by way of siiginstituted. This would be a necessary pro- gestion to his hon. Friend and not with tection to those who might otherwise be any view of prejudging the measure. subjected to vexatious annoyance. The Bill, on the whole, was considered by many as of even more urgent importance than the great subject of reform which would be brought under the notice of the House next week, and he hoped hon. Members would pay earnest attention to its details.

MR. W. EWART said, one object of the Bill was to increase the number of wards, but he doubted whether such divisions in a borough were sound in principle at all. Anciently, wards were adopted as a matter of police, but now they were useless divisions, and often enabled persons to obtain an ascendancy which they could not obtain if the municipal elections extended over the whole borough. With regard to the institution of a public prosecutor, he thought if that principle were adopted at all it should be in the form of a general measure, and that it should not be introduced as part of such a Bill as the present.

MR. ADAMS said, he would have great pleasure in supporting the Bill; but he had an objection to the nomination of persons to be elected as town councillors being restricted to a few days before the election. He thought there were many reasons why it should be in the power of candidates to come forward at the last moment. Besides, he thought some time was necessarily occupied in printing the voting papers and distributing them. Reference had been made also to the difficulty of finding and opening Committee Rooms. He should therefore object to the length of time made necessary for nomination before the election. He objected also to the proposal of referring questions of bribery to juries in County Courts. Juries in the County Courts were only five in number, they must necessarily be selected from the locality and therefore would be composed of persons who were necessarily partisans. He suggested that it would be better, to decide such questions by information at Quarter Sessions; he would give an appeal, not to the Recorder of the town, but to justices of a neighbouring county. He objected also to the nomination of a public prosecutor by the town councillors on the same ground of the probability of a partisan being appointed to the office. He should be sorry to see the great general question of a public prosecutor prejudiced VOL. CLII. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. WALPOLE considered this an important measure. Many parts of it were valuable; but there were other parts on which he wished to reserve his opinion at present, and therefore he hoped that the hon. Member would not object to postpone the Committee on the Bill for a week or ten days.

Bill read 2o, and committed for Wednes day, 2nd March.

House adjourned at a quarter before Ten o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Wednesday, February 23, 1859. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1o Church Rates.

CHURCH RATES COMMUTATION BILL. SECOND READING DEFERRED.

Order for Second Reading read. MR. WALPOLE said, he would beg of the hon. Gentleman to postpone the second reading of this measure until the Government Bill on the same subject came on, so that the discussion upon all three Bills might be taken together.

MR. ALCOCK said, he was sorry that he must decline to accede to the suggestion. His Bill was identical with one which he introduced last Session and which was read a first time, but he had never said a word with respect to it. He (Mr. Alcock) was one of those who for years had voted for the abolition of church rates, and he was still prepared to do so if there was any chance of such a measure passing; but as he thought that hopeless, he was of opinion that such a Bill as he now proposed, being purely voluntary and permissive, was desirable. The Bill held out no premium to Dissenters to increase their opposition to church rates, or any inducement to tenant farmers to agree to their abolition.. Nor was it open to many objections which he thought applicable to the plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. The chief objection he felt to the Government Bill was the nature of the machinery employed the incumbent and the churchwardens - whom the Govern-.

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ment wished to erect into a corporation scientious objections to its continuance. with perpetual succession. Again, he He thought it a very reasonable thing to could not suppose how the Government allow lords of manors to give waste land, could entertain the idea that they would but had omitted from his Bill a clause be able to set at rest at once and for ever drawn with that object. a question they had been unable for so long a period to settle from year to year. It was wholly impracticable. How could they

settle what the rates had been for the last ten or twenty years, seeing that in many instances half of the rates were voluntary, while the other half had been compulsory? It would be also necessary to see how the fabrics of the church had been maintained. How could they now strike an average for fifteen or twenty years, when in some parishes the fabric was neglected, and others spent thousands upon it? In addition to this the Government Bill did not satisfy him as to the period when there would be a discharge of the parish from church rates, as it depended on the Government to advise the Queen in Council at what period that discharge should be given. In his Bill he preferred to make use of the machinery of the Charity Commissioners who already had under their administration property to the value of £1,200,000. They administered more than 20,000 charities, varying in value from 10s. to £35,000. Those Commissioners would have the judgment and the discrimi nation to use such powers as he proposed to confer on them. The body which would have to deal with such a subject ought to be in possession of a very large margin, in order to deal justly with the fabric of the Church and with the ratepayers, His Bill was entirely permissive; he asked for no change in the law, but only (he repeated) the establishment of permissive provisions. No Churchman, therefore, ought to object to it. He proposed that persons should be allowed to charge their estates, or to give money, for the repair of churches; and, although it might be said that they could do so now, it must be remembered such liberality was checked by the possibility of a legal church rate being also imposed. He did not propose to touch the Mortmain Act, but he thought it might be relaxed a little, as had been done with respect to the gift of tithes. He adopted a provision in the Charity Act, which would allow of a charge on laud, made for the repair of a church, being extinguished by the investment of money in the Funds, to meet the case of land so charged afterwards passing into the possession of a Dissenter, who might have con

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. COLLINS said, he should move as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time on Monday next.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon Monday next."

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he also would recommend postponement, which would tend much to the convenience of the House, for then the discussion upon the three Bills might come on together. He had no doubt that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny), in the course he had taken, fully intended to give the Government measure a fair consideration.

MR. FITZROY said, he rose to order; the hon. Member was discussing a Bill not before the House.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH only meant to say that he should persist in the Amendment of which he had given notice if the hon. Baronet's Bill was pressed.

MR. SOUTHERON-ESTCOURT said, he also must urge postponement until the other two Bills on the same subject were brought forward. It would be most inconvenient, under such circumstances as these, to allow the Bill to go through any stage by which the House might be compromised as to its principle.

MR. ALCOCK said, he would consent to a postponement of the second reading of his measure.

Question, "That the word now,' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived. Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

ELECTIONS, &c. BILL.

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

MR. COLLINS said, he rose to move the second reading of this Bill, the object of which was to assimilate the time of giving notice of elections all over the kingdom, and also for assimilating the time allowed for polling in Ireland, namely, two

As, how ever, there was some difficulty about the latter proposition, he should not press that clause which referred to it. The next provision was to alter the period of elections during the recess of Parliament, which was now fourteen days, to six. Another clause proposed to reduce the time in which a bankrupt Member of the House whose bankruptcy was not annulled was allowed to hold his seat from twelve months to four.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time.'

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days, to the system pursued in England, tice. He (the Attorney General) had which confined it to one day. often heard the hon. Gentleman urge the propriety of granting an equal measure of justice to both countries. He should be able to direct the hon. Gentleman's attention to measures of a precisely similar character which had been passed for England. Now the reasons for the Bill were these: in feudal times there were things in Ireland called manors. The grantee of a manor had power to constitute a court, the Judge of which was supposed to be the seneschal of the manor or the steward. Such a system might have been necessary in feudal times, but was decidedly most inapplicable to the present. Occasionally there was found presiding in those courts some men of sense, for whom the people felt much respect; but the system of those courts became very bad from the fact of the sittings being held in publichouses. The whole subject had been investigated by a Select Committee, which had sat for three or four Sessions. That Committee made recommendations for the improvement of those courts which had never been carried out. Those courts had sometimes a very large jurisdiction and at other times a very small jurisdiction. The decisions of the manor courts were constantly reversed. The assistant barrister's court had

MR. WHITESIDE asked, if the Bill applied to Ireland.

MR. COLLINS said, that the first clause with regard to notices assimilated the practices of elections in Ireland and England. The second clause altering the time of polling in Ireland he should not press.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD suggested the postponement of the debate.

MR. COLLINS assented.
Debate adjourned till Wednesday next.

JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.

SECOND READING DEFERRED.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he would ask that the second reading of this Bill might stand over, in order that the subject might be considered with the view to the formation of a complete measure.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he had no objection to take that course, and he would fix that day fortnight for the second reading.

Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 9th March.

MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND), BILL.

COMMITTEE DEFERRED.

Order for Committee read.
Motion made and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the
Chair."

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he must complain of the revenue of this country being saddled with an annual sum by way of compensation to certain gentlemen whose offices were to be abolished by this Bill.

proved most efficient in working; meanwhile the manor courts fell into disuse, but were not abolished. It was absurd to have two sets of courts existing side by side, and there was but one opinion in Ireland upon this question.

MR. KIRK said, that the seneschal of the manor court acted also as returning officer, and if the manor courts were to be abolished there ought to be a provision for making the sheriff of the county the returning officer. The term "emolument" was one of rather wide signification, and some precise definition of it ought to be given, or otherwise it would give the seneschals a title to a larger amount of compensation than they ought to receive.

He

MR. DAVISON said, no greater boon than the abolition of the manor courts could be conferred upon Ireland. knew something of their administration, and in one court the seneschal was in the habit of charging the successful party, whether plaintiff or defendant, a shilling MR. WHITESIDE said, there was to be spent in drink by the jury. another important branch of the question poor man who had got his case was once involved by this Bill, which would no doubt going away without paying the shilling, interest the hon. Member for Lambeth-which in fact he was unable to raise, and namely the proper administration of jus- the seneschal called after him "Oh, very

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well-wait till you bring another case into this court, and you shall see what happens then."

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD urged, that the House ought to have more information supplied as to what would be the financial effect of the measure.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he must demand that the question of compensation should take precedence of the other portions of the Bill, which might be discussed after the cost of abolishing these courts should be determined.

LORD NAAS observed, that according to the rules of the House, they could not proceed with the compensation clauses of the Bill until after a Resolution, authorising compensation to be granted, had been pass ed n Committee of Supply; it was therefore proposed to take the other clauses of the Bill now.

MR. DE VERE said, he also must express his opinion that the Bill should not be proceeded with until the compensation question had been discussed.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he wished to intimate his intention of dividing the House upon the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair.

LORD NAAS said, in that case he would agree to postpone the Bill until after the other orders of the day, with the view to let the Resolution on compensation be proposed in the preliminary Committee and then proceed with the Bill.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.'

Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Committee deferred till after the other Orders of the Day.

RECEIVERS IN CHANCERY (IRELAND)
ABOLITION, &c. BILL.
SECOND READING DEFERRED.

MR. WHITESIDE moved that the Bill be now read the second time.

country, they ought all to entertain only one view-namely, that of the public good. He only desired that the profession generally should have time to consider the provisions of the measures.

MR. WHITESIDE said, that when he sat on the other side of the House he had frequent occasion to complain that Irish business, however important it might be, was not introduced until late in the Session, when it was impossible to consider it properly. During the recess his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had urgently pressed upon the Irish Government the necessity of being ready with the Irish Bills at an early period, and had himself come over to Ireland for the purpose of arranging personally the Irish legislation of the Session. In obedience to the wishes of the Cabinet these two Bills had been prepared and laid before Parliament immediatety on its meeting. If, however, it were understood that hon. Gentleman opposite would then be prepared to discuss and come to a decision on these Bills, he should have no objection to postpone them for a week or ten days; but none of the other Irish Bills which were ready to be introduced would be proceeded with until these measures were disposed of. Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 3rd March.

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MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, it was not his intention to oppose the Bill on this subject. He thought it a good measure, MR. J. D. FITZGERALD said, he must and one which would receive support, whepress the right hon. Gentleman to post-ther carried in this Session or at a future pone both this Bill and the Sale and Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill for ten days or a fortnight, on the ground that they had only just been printed, and there had been no time, therefore, to consider them, or to communicate with persons in Ireland in reference to them. Both Bills were of a large character, and would, if passed, affect the interests of the people very considerably. In amending the law of the

time. The Courts to be abolished were held under ancient charters and patents, and, according to established precedent, the Committee would have to grant compensation to the Judges of the Courts if they were abolished, and he was at a loss to understand how they could calculate the compensation, except upon the full emoluments of the offices. Before they passed this Resolution, therefore, they ought to

have before them a statement, showing be no doubt of their opinion that it was what the financial effect of the measure desirable to make the County Courts more would be. In 1842 a return of the Courts was moved for, and was afterwards presented, and it showed that in thirty-two counties there were about 193 of these courts, but no return was made respecting those in the County Cork and six other counties. The emoluments, it appeared, were very considerable, and if this measure were passed, it would be essential that they should provide compensation for all, whatever the number of Judges might be, and he believed they considerably exceeded 200. The course he would suggest was this that in order to save the large burden which would inevitably fall upon the finances of the country, the House should merely pass a measure to prevent any Judges being appointed in future to these Courts, and, in the meantime, should provide for the extension of jurisdiction of the County Courts. Until that were done, it was absolutely essential that these Manor Courts should be preserved as they now existed. They could easily provide for the extension of the County Courts and Assistant Barristers' Courts, and make their sittings more frequent and the expenses of those Courts less. The County Courts of England and those of Ireland, let it be remembered, were not analagous in their jurisdiction and the manner in which it was exercised. If such a proposition as he ventured to suggest were carried out, in a few years these Manor Courts would disappear, while they would avoid having forced upon them claims for compensation. The delay might enable them to mature a well-considered plan for the extension of the County Courts in Ireland, and the assimilation of them to those in England.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he must confess he was surprised at the course taken by the right hon. and learned Gentleman relative to this measure. He should have thought that if any Motion would have met with unanimous approval, it would have been that before the Committee. He had heard described by the most eminent Judges in Ireland the evils that arose from the present system of Manor Courts-perjury, falsehood, and perverse litigation. The late Mr. O'Connell had denounced them, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Mr. Napier) had declared them to be a nuisance to the public which required abatement. The Commission which had considered the subject had not directly recommended their abolition, but there could

widely available, and to get rid of the Manor courts as soon as possible. The seneschal, who was appointed by the lord of the manor, might be a man without learning-nay, devoid even of education or of principlehe might be incapable of determining the value of evidence, and ignorant of the law which he sat to administer. In the face of such evils did it become a man who had held the high office of Attorney General for Ireland to put in what might be called a dilatory plea, because he feared the finances of the country might be endangered? The objections urged by the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not exist, for by the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 87, it was provided that the Privy Council in Ireland might increase the number of places in counties where the assistant barristers should sit, so that, if the people desired it, extension of jurisdiction could be made under that Act. Moreover, by the existing law the magistrates had power to decide disputes concerning wages up to £10, and disputes at fairs up to £5; and this Bill proposed to give them the decision in cases of small debts, up to 20s., with an appeal to the County Court Judge. He submitted that a more sensible, reasonable, or useful provision could not be made on behalf of the poor. It was, in fact, a measure for the better administration of justice to the poor. Government and Parliament existed for the administration of justice, and they could not apply a small portion of the finances of the country-to which, it should be remembered, all contributed-more wisely or more beneficially than in giving to the poor that justice which they could not obtain in the present extortionate courts, which were originally nothing better than privileged plunderers. Would the Committee, then, hesitate to do for Ireland that which they did for this country when they established the English County Courts? Compensation had been granted to displaced officers in England, why, then, should not a similar course be taken with regard to Ireland, especially as the stamp duties, which it was intended to impose on the processes that would be issued, would be more than sufficient to cover the compensation? Why, it had been asked, was not a statement of the amount of compensation brought forward? He had abstained from expressing his intention to introduce the measure, lest returns should be manufactured as the basis of claims. The word

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