those plants to inspect for the State laws, could also inspect for the Government contracts.

Here in the Army and Navy are inspectors who have to be there constantly at the plant watching for specific laws as they apply to the manufacture of articles. Would it not be possible to train those people also to watch out for violations of wage and hour provisions? It seems to me that it would not be difficult. They must be intelligent people. It would be a possible thing for that to be done, I should think.

With the principles of this bill I am in most hearty accord. I have suggested a few amendments, which in your wisdom you may or may not adopt. But with the principles I am in thorough accord.

I think that the time has come when the Government should take a definite stand and use its influence on behalf of this section of the industry, this better element in the industry of the country, who will welcome that type of help in being able to maintain decent standards. STATEMENT OF DR. COURTNEY DINWIDDIE, OF THE NATIONAL CHILD LABOR COMMITTEE

It seems to me that the essence of the matter is this: That there are certain standards of wages and hours under which it practically impossible for people to live as human beings; and that they are also bound to destroy the very industry in which they are practiced. The purpose of this bill, as I understand it, is to see that the Government does not lend itself to perpetuating such conditions, but, rather, that its influence be on the other side.

Child labor, in which I am especially interested, is, I believe, a perfect illustration of the worst of those conditions, because there you are exploiting the youngest of the human race, who are most easily exploited, and to whom the most harm is done.

Child labor always does put a keen razor edge on unscrupulous competition, because it is a weapon that is most powerful in making adults come down to the level of the child, who will work for practically nothing.

I would like to give just one or two illustrations of that. We have seen, when the depression was even worse than it is now, conditions under which children were being crowded in the factories at a time when adults were being laid off by the wholesale, where the laborers in the factories who were children ran up as high as 20 and 25 and even in some cases to 50 percent.

We have seen goods, for instance, in New York State, cut out and taken across the border into other States and made up by cheap child labor, because it could not be done in New York by that method, practically ruining the business of competitors.

The result of that, I think, is a perfect illustration of something that is very significant in industry. I don't know whether all of you gentlemen followed it or not, but in March 1931, the cotton textile industry, which was suffering severely from the exact type of thing that this bill aims to prevent, agreed that night work for women and children must be eliminated. It was a very serious thing. It was damaging the industry by overproduction and not giving sufficient wages for a living. They took a vote, and 85 percent of the industry voted to eliminate night work for women and

39- -ser. 12, pt. 2-36- -6

children. That was increased to 88 percent by others that came in later.

One factory in particular tried a system of the voluntary elimination of nightwork in their factory. It was a complete and absolute failure. In the course of not very many months they had to give that up, simply because of the fact that the competition of that 12

U. S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, CHILDREN'S BUREAU Number of children 14 and 15 years of age receiving employment certificates per 1,000 children of these ages in 10 cities, 1920-1934 (Children's Bureau) Index of employment in manufacturing industries, 1920–1934 (Bureau of Labor Statistics)

1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 This chart shows that before 1933 a rise in general factory employment was accompanied by a rise in the number of employment certificates issued to children. From 1933, the year in which the N. R. A. codes with a 16-year minimum age went into effect, this tendency was reversed. During the period the codes were in operation, employment of children decreased notwithstanding a continuing rise in factory employment.

percent ruined the business of the others, and they had to come down to that level.

I have here a chart which I would like to leave with the committee. It illustrates the trend of child labor. It was prepared by the United States Children's Bureau.

Mr. HEALEY. Leave that for the record.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. All right

This chart shows that child labor varies directly with employment generally. It shows that the only period where child labor decreased was at the time that unemployment increased during the operation of the codes.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. I want to be sure of the application of the question of child labor to this proposed legislation. For instance, we know that a constitutional amendment has been submitted to the various States of the Union on this question of child labor. Dr. DINWIDDIE. Yes.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. It has been pending for years and has not yet been approved by the necessary 36 States. Certainly you would say that that is legislation which should be adopted.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I certainly would.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. We will assume that the effect of this bill upon child labor is one of the virtues of the bill; and that there are other issues. I would like to have you give your application of the question of child labor directly to this proposed legislation.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I think that child labor is a perfect illustration of the use of cheap competition to ruin the business of a competitor, because children, wherever they may be employed, force adults to come down to that level. That has been the universal experience, and studies will convince, I think, anyone of that fact.

Mr. HEALEY. You have just put in the record a chart showing the trend of child labor?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. Exactly.

Mr. HEALEY. May I ask you if it is a fact that child labor is on the increase now?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. It is on the increase now.

Mr. HEALEY. It has been on the increase since the N. R. A. codes were abolished?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. It has. I would like to give you a few figures on that.

Mr. HEALEY. We would be glad to have them.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. In New York City, where under the present law, which will be changed next September, permits are given to 14- and 15-year-old children to go to work only if they have a job promised to them, between September and December of this year the number of work permits for 14- and 15-year-old children has been 5.225, as compared with only 1,405 last year in the same period. That is practically a quadrupling of the number.

The most significant fact in relation to those figures is this: In that period the number of permits for the 15-year-olds has actually decreased. The work of 14- and 15-year-old children can be purchased cheaper.

That is an illustration of the harm of child labor. It is an effort to chisel on any decent sort of wage.

Mr. MICHENER. Who gives out those permits?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. They are given by the officials under the New York City Board of Education.

Mr. MICHENER. It seems to me that the State should curb that right instead of encouraging it.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. The State law allows such permits to be given after the child is 14 if the child has completed the eighth grade.

There is a law which has been passed, which will go into effect next September, which raises the age to 16. But in the United States there are only seven States which have the 16-year minimum-age standard.

Mr. MICHENER. New York State was the author of legislation to prohibit child labor. It seems to me that it is peculiar if they are not only blinking at it, but contributing to the employment of children by the issuing of permits to permit 14-year-old children to engage in industry.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I would like to make it clear that New York State ranks higher in its standards than the average of the country; in fact, than most States.

Mr. MICHENER. That is true, and if New York State has the ability to prevent this, why should they be granting more permits now?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. Because these people are hurrying to get these permits before the 16-year minimum-age law becomes effective in September.

Mr. CITRON. Are there any States that have no child-labor laws? Dr. DINWIDDIE. There are no States that have no child-labor laws, but there are some States where there are so many exemptions that even 14-year-old children can work, and even as young as 12 years, and even in factories.

Mr. CITRON. What States are those?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I don't remember all of those things in detail, but South Carolina, for instance, and Georgia, rank very low in that. sort of protection to their children.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. Have you ever thought that this question of child labor is a problem of the States of the Union rather than of the Federal Government?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I think it is a problem of both.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. But primarily a problem for the States? Dr. DINWIDDIE. It has rested on the States up until this time, but we have seen that it is impossible to completely eliminate it solely by State action.

Mr. HEALEY. Of course, you do not favor the employment of children on Government contracts?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I most certainly do not.

Mr. HEALEY. You don't think that the Federal Government should lend itself to anything like that

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I think that it should be eliminated just as fast as it can.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. As I said before, the disposition of this committee is to eliminate it in every way possible; but we must take this child labor into consideration with these other matters.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. Yes. I agree with that very heartily. But I think that it is much more important than the other considerations because of the moral effect and physical effect and economic effect of child labor in compelling adults to come down to the level of children. I think it should have far greater weight than people realize because of that fact.

Mr. DUFFEY of Ohio. You realize that the proposed legislation could only effect Government contracts; that it could have no effect on private contractors?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. I think that Government should through its example try to influence the raising of standards in industry. I think that if the Government raises its standards, it will have a considerable moral effect. Certainly the Government should not be a party to the use of cheap child labor.

I did not mean to say that the State of New York is a horrible example of any kind. I simply meant to state that it is one of the better States in which this condition still exists.

The Children's Bureau has obtained figures from a number of States, I think, six States, and about 102 cities. As a matter of fact, they found that during the 7 months of the current year, I mean 1935, after the codes were no longer in effect, there were something over 10,000 work permits given out, as compared with something over 6,000 for the entire previous year, showing that that is a general trend upward in the use of child labor.

Mr. MICHENER. That illustrates that industry is willing to employ child labor if it gets an opportunity; and that your State governments are really willing to assist in making that possible by granting permits. It seems to me that if the State governments would not grant permits, industry could not employ and will not employ child labor.

Dr. DINWIDDIE. That is perfectly true.

For over 30 years we have been proceeding on the theory that we could persuade a sufficient number of States to try to eliminate child labor. We know now that it cannot be done, because of this competitive element. If your business can be taken away from you across the border into another State where such practices are not against the law, you are not going to cooperate.

Mr. MICHENER. I have taken a very active part in the work of this committee to get child-labor amendments, and I am very much surprised to hear about these conditions in my own State.

Mr. DINWIDDIE. I don't want to be misunderstood. I just want to make certain facts clear.

Mr. CITRON. Do you know any contractors who have Government contracts who have availed themselves of child labor?

Dr. DINWIDDIE. We have not made sufficiently extensive investigations to be able to answer that. I am sorry. I wish we could.

I would like to speak a little bit, Mr. Chairman, on this question of home work, because we have a good deal of direct, first-hand information on the subject, which I would like to present to you. The use of home work is probably the most effective means that can possibly be used to drive down the standards of decency in industry.

In the first place, the members of a whole family can usually be purchased, that is, their work, for about the wages of one worker in a factory. That is always generally true. You will find occasional exceptions.

We made at the request of some Government officials a study of what actually happened in the artificial-flower industry. I would like to take a little time to present some figures to you on that. I think these figures are very significant.

During a certain period only 50 percent of home work was required to be eliminated from that industry. During that period we