o'clock, and on Monday morning the opposition will commence their presentation of their views.

Mr. Dunn. Mr. Chairman, I would like to renew my request at this time which I made last week.

The CHAIRMAN. You are opposed to this bill?

Mr. DUNN. As the representative of the Trade Union Community League.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you opposed to this bill?

Mr. Dunn. I wish to be heard before these employers that are listed with me in your committee schedule. We were the first organization to say that section 7 (a) would not do what it said it would.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your organization?
Mr. Dunn. The Trade Union Community League.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that one of the organizations which have been referred to here as communistic?

Mr. Dunn. I have not heard it referred to here as communistic, but the press refers to it as communistic occasionally.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you admit or deny it?

Mr. DUNN. It is not a communist organization. It is a trade union representing 125,000 organized workers.

The ChairMAN. I would be very glad to give you a hearing. I cannot do it this morning, because several others have made that request and I have denied them. I do not want to hear you until after the proponents of the bill have concluded their testimony. Perhaps tomorrow morning after we have finished with the witnesses that are scheduled we might hear you.

Mr. Dunn. The thing I am objecting to especially, Senator, is that we are listed in your committee schedule with such organizations as the United States Steel Corporation, whose motives for opposing this bill are certainly not ours.

The CHAIRMAN. You may list the witness as representing a branch of organized labor that is opposed to this measure. Is that right?

Mr. Dunn. Yes. When can I be heard, Senator?

The CHAIRMAN. If we finish with the other witnesses tomorrow morning we will hear you then. We will attempt to arrange it so that you will not be contaminated by the employers who appear in opposition.

Mr. Dunn. It is not exactly contamination but it might give rise to a certain misunderstanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the committee recessed until tomorrow, Thursday, Mar. 22, 1934, at 10 a.m.)




Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a.m., in room 335, Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C., Senator David I. Walsh (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Walsh (chairman), Metcalf, Davis.
Present also: Senator Robert F. Wagner.
The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Mr. Hogue?


The CHAIRMAN. Your full name, please?
Mr. HOGUE. Richard W. Hogue.
The CHAIRMAN. Your residence?
Mr. HOGUE, 125 Third Street NE.
The CHAIRMAN. Washington?
Mr. HOGUE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are listed as a director of workers' education, Pennsylvania State Federation of Labor.

Mr. HOGUE. Formerly a director of workers' education.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your occupation now?

Mr. Hogue. Director of the independent legislative bureau here in Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. Representing whom?

Mr. HOGUE. At this hearing representing only the request of Senator Wagner after knowing of my work with the division of labor. I represent no organization, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. How much time would you like?

Mr. HOGUE. I want to hurry through briefly. They told me yesterday I would be on at 11 o'clock, and I was getting ready a very effective little statement when they told me to come at 10; so it is not ready.

The CHAIRMAN. Who told you to come at 10?

Mr. HOGUE. The clerk, at Senator Wagner's request. I suppose they had more important witnesses that they wanted to get out of the way. I will try to be brief, but it is difficult when you are hurried and have not formulated things effectively.

The importance of this measure, it seems to me, looms very much, not only in itself, but as a means to an end. In other words, there are some of us who feel that measures like this, and particularly this measure, have their greatest importance in the end toward which they take us, rather than in the immediate subject of present difficulties, and it seems to me that the facts of today justify us in feeling that unless some such step is taken as this, the end will not be desirable to peace-loving people, above all to justice-loving people, and will come in ways that very few of us will relish. That is not a threat but simply a statement of fact, that where industrial conditions will continue over too long a period as they are in a country, the inevitable result, unless you have a body of possessing and owning tyrants and a body of subservient slaves, is that you do have very serious difficulty. We are having that difficulty today with the strikes that are being threatened.

The first thing I wanted very briefly to say is that my experience in Pennsylvania led me to feel that few of us fully appreciate, Senator, what is apt to happen, what is now happening. The industrial system of America has grown up with one primary, dominating, and determined motive, the motive of profit.

The industrial realm of America has never been regulated on any large scale, nor ever been given proper attention from a standpoint of human rights. The result is, therefore, that we have an owning and possessing and a dictating class in the main, and either a subservient or a protesting and a rebelling class. Democracy cannot exist with that, that is all.

In the midst of a political democracy, where we have a right to vote for everybody from the lowest magistrate to the President, you have an industrial autocracy where the right of industrial franchise is generally denied, where when it has been granted, it has been granted as the result, not of the far-seeing wisdom of those in control of industry, but as the result of pressure and frequently as the result of violence and suffering.

The thing that makes me feel so deeply about this, and that I have a right to say a word on it, is what I saw in Pennsylvania, and very recently, which in a more or less degree exists over the country, certainly bodes ill for all of us.

I have seen workers, American citizens, men whom I have lived among and known well enough to admire, and come to love, seen them with their families, wives, and little kids, just as we have ours, seen them not only oppressed with burdens that in a decent society and in a profitable country ought never to be permitted, their children deprived of proper education, themselves deprived of jobs without any fault of their own, living in an atmosphere of industrial insecurity, and human anxiety, so much so that if we did not have a sense of the tragic it would be humorous in a country like this.

I have been among them when they have never known whether the man next to them was a spy, an agent provocateur, or one of the contemptible types of men that are regularly employed in certain industrial disputes.

In other words, we have in America commercialized strike-breaking agencies, where one side in the industrial world, by the power of finance, employs representatives of this recognized agency in Chicago, New York, and elsewhere, in order to break-down the right of other men to organize and express themselves through the power of collective bargaining. I have seen these spies, I have talked to them, I have seen a street-railway strike broken up, strike breakers brought in specially guarded trains from New York, 1,000 of them.

I have seen when those men got out at the station in Altoona then destroy everything in sight that they could not eat or smoke, and when the police tried to arrest them, I have seen them attack the police, and while living in Harrisburg, I learned when they wired the chief of police in Harrisburg to stop the train on its way to New York and arrest the men, instead of that, influence of the industrial leaders upon the Pennsylvania Railroad was such that they not only did not arrest them, but sent them to New York, and kept the facts out of the newspapers.

I have been up in the mine regions and lived in the tents in the yards of miners. I remember one fine Scotch family where the husband worked in mines underneath ground formerly owned by the family of the wife, and where by methods very common in our industrial world that family lost those mines, and where those self-respecting Scotch people, once the possessors of the very land beneath which the wealth of the coal rested, were these slaves of a nonunion company, receiving treatment that was almost unbelievable, where the meetings that we held were intimidated by the firing of shotguns and the burning of the cross by the Ku-Klux Klan.

I have seen those dignified, respectable, decent citizens, members of the church, the owners of the industry, not hesitate to stoop to methods that are simply incomprehensible in any enlightened age.

What I am leading up to is this—I do not want to take any more time that the natural reaction in the minds of the workers frequently is bad. You cannot get a group of people who depend upon the labor of their lives for the support of their families, the education of their children, and the security of their future, you cannot get them baffled and beaten and oppressed and maltreated and exploited at every turn unless you get evil results in their own hearts at times. So, you get articles like this in yesterday's paper, when Mr. Raymond Kloever portrays the labor difficulties that the administration is now facing, and in it gives the last section-I think this leads directly to the situation-gives the last section to an account of the racketeer in the labor movement.

It is a very vivid and a very interesting account of the amount of salary, the amount of rake-off, that certain labor leaders get.

Surely it is true. When you get a group of people, themselves very largely deprived of education that would make for sanity of thought and self control, fighting all their lives against conditions that are not only inhuman but are monstrously unnecessary and unjust, you are going to have things like that develop.

This is my point, Senator, that these kinds of things are going to continue, so it seems to us, unless one definite thing happens; and that definite thing is not a conversion of your capitalist class to the viewpoint of a perfect development nor the development of your labor class to the viewpoint of perfect human conduct; we have got to have an orderly, systematic industrial arrangement that does simply one thing, that no longer inhibits human beings who have enough intelligence and enough interest to labor their lives in an industry, from the full expression of their collective opinions and their collective needs, and you cannot have that, it seems to us, short of what this bill is aiming at. I am not speaking now of its technical provisions. How important that is is shown on all sides.

The fundamental aspects of the measure before you and its long range effects are, I think, of primary importance. With all of the

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