What I am saying is that is the greatest concentration. Of course there is intelligence throughout the city. But I am saying this. We, at this time, in our school system, should have the best people. And as this bill is written now, we cannot have the best eleven people. We will have it by wards. We will have maybe the best person in Ward A, in Ward B.

Mr. Dowdy. Let me pursue that a minute.

Your theory could very likely work in reverse. The fact that you have your nine or eleven people running from the Northwest section, one of the other sections in town might also have eleven people running. Maybe you are right that all the brains in Washington live in the Northwest. I do not know.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I did not say that.

Mr. Dowdy. But it would depend on who turns out the most votes. And maybe these lesser, if you want to say that-those people with lesser education, lesser ability, would get the most votes, and all eleven of them be not one of them from the Northwest section.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Can I speak to that, sir?

I say again my statement is the greatest concentration. If you put up eleven from Northwest, put up eleven from Southwest, maybe 12 or 13 from Northeast, maybe another from the other quadrant of our city, and then let the people decide. I have faith in the people in the District of Columbia. I do. And I think here in Washington we have a community where white and black are getting along together, and we will continue to get along together.

And I think what this bill has in mind-I said it at the Board of Education is to guarantee, I believe, in my heart, that there will be representations of black and white. I think if we had an election at large, we would have black and white representation. And it would be greater than I think the bill would give us. And we would have the best people.

Mr. DowDY. If we followed everything you say completely, it could very well turn up that the Northwest section would never have a man on the school board, Mr. Steiger.

Mr. STEIGER. I thank the gentleman.

I think you must recognize the very genuine value of the parochial interests of a representative of a specific ward. And I point out an example of that, which may in your eyes be a weak one, but the Congress of the United States is divided on just this basis--the fact that a man who is responsible to a geographical section of the Nation. By the same token, the representative of a specific ward would, of necessity, concentrate on that ward's problems. And this is a very healthy situation. And you would be eliminating this entirely by the at-large concept.

I think you would be doing a disservice to the ward by providing entirely for at-large elections. The ward would be neglected. This is a fact of political life.

Dr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Steiger, is your Senate on that basis?

Mr. Dowdy. Actually it is, because it represents each state separately. Dr. ALEXANDER. The whole state, sir.

Mr. Downy. Under the theory you have, you might as well elect one hundred Senators at large in the United States.

Dr. ALEXANDER. I don't think so, sir. I don't think I am saying that.

I am saying to you our school system needs the eleven best people. I agree that the congressional setup that we have in our country is wonderful. I also agree that the Senators' set up we have in our country is wonderful.

What I am saying to you, let our school board members be Senators, not Congressmen. I have a great deal of respect-in the sense that we would represent the whole people. That is what I am saying.

Mr. DOWDY. Mr. Rosenfield-did you want to direct an answer to the question I propounded?

Mr. ROSENFIELD. Yes, I would like to speak on your suggestion, sir. I disagree with my colleague, Dr. Allen, and I agree with Congressman Steiger and your thought on the subject, and that is this:

That perhaps if we had had on the Board of Education, members from all the wards, each one representing a ward on the Board of Education, we would not have the shortage of rooms in certain areas only, and perhaps an overabundance in other areas.

And I also feel that if we are going to have a good system, that society must participate, and all segments of society in the community should be given a chance to express their views. So I am for that. And I am also for electing a president of the Board of Education at large, because I think, in a community as big as Washington, we will get the outstanding individual, and it will be much better than a meeting of nine people choosing and jockeying for position, whom to elect for office.

I think the people should do it. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir.

Mr. Dowdy. If nine people get together or eleven people get together, the first controversy they will have is who should be president of the board. Your suggestion would eliminate that.

Mr. GUDE. Will the gentleman yield?

I would like to make an observation. I have made a considerable study of the question of representation in the District of Columbia on the various advisory boards and commissions of the District, and found a tremendous weighting to the Northwest section of the city.

It would seem to be a result of this administrative "malapportionment," if you want to call it that. For example, in the distribution of libraries, you have one library for 19,000 citizens in the Northwest section, whereas in the balance of the city, you have one library for 54,000 citizens. Nonetheless, the argument is always made that it is too parochial to have wards or elected representatives from subdivisions.

But still the parochial viewpoint is essential in order to get certain facilities for certain areas. I think that the figures that we developed speak for themselves in this regard.

Mr. DowDY. I get the same idea, except maybe in reverse. I was thinking that jealousy others may hold for Northwest Washington would keep the Northwest from having any representation on the board. That was the thought that struck my mind.

Now, Mrs. Allen, did you have some comment on my question? Mrs. ALLEN. Yes, I would like to comment on your question, sir. As a native Washingtonian who grew up in Southeast Washington, I would like to feel that Southeast Washington should be represented on the board.

Specifically, in answer to your question, I feel that there should be a group of members on the Board of Education who are concerned with education in the District as a whole.

Mr. Dowdy. All of the members ought to be.

Mrs. ALLEN. All those who are elected from the wards should, I think, be responsive primarily to the educational needs of the children in their wards. This I think would be insured by the fact that they have been elected by the persons who live in the wards they represent. I agree that there should be representation that way. But I would prefer a larger number of at-large members to insure that the needs of the educational system as a whole have adequate consideration. Mr. Dowdy. I think you would get it, because each ward would then be equally represented on the Board, and not deleted by at-large members.

Mrs. ALLEN. I believe that there would be quite a bit of jockeying for better schools and so forth in the various sections of the city. But there are many problems that are city-wide.

Mr. DowDY. That is one reason I think the president of the School Board ought to be elected city-wide.

Mrs. ALLEN. That I think would be a good idea. I am commenting not on the election of the president as such, but on the limitation of the at-large members from three to one.

Mr. Dowdy. Now, I have one other question that would bear on the same subject. This bill provides that compensation should be paid to the Board members. What is your opinion as to compensation for them? I know that the Board of Education here in the District of Columbia serves very faithfuly, and has done a very good job. They have done as good a job under the circumstances as I think anybody could. I do not know why anybody complains about what they have done.

But don't you believe that if you put a monetary value on the services of the Board of Education, that you will be destroying it; you will have people running for the money that they get, rather than because of their interest in the schools of the District? And if you have somebody who is running purely because he wants to do something for the District of Columbia schools, and the children, you will get a better school board than you would if you pay them for it?

Mrs. ALLEN. Yes, I do. I think that study of school boards across the country have shown what you have said to be true. I do feel, however, that the expenses of the school board members should be borne by compensation, public compensation. We should not have to pay our transportation from one side of the city to the other.

There are many expenses connected with serving on the school board, and those I think should be reimbursed. This is different from compensation.

Mr. DowDY. They are purely incidental expenses. They would not amount to much.

Mrs. ALLEN. They do add up.

Mr. Dowdy. In Texas, as far as I know, there is not any school that pays compensation to School Board members. And we have some quite hot elections sometimes to determine who is going to serve on the School Board.

Dr. Alexander, you had something you wanted to say?

Dr. ALEXANDER. I agree with you. I don't want compensation in order to serve. I do it because it is deep in my heart, that we have to help 150,000 children.

I think this is the consensus of the Board. But last year on School Board matters alone I put 23,000 miles on my car. Prior to getting on the Board I drove about 6,000 miles. We speak a lot. We attend meetings of this type. We have board meetings.

I think those should be paid for-expenses only. And they do run up to somewhere about $60 or $70 a year. And to me that would be worth while to the Board members.

Mr. DowDY. $60 or $70 a year-I guess any of us in public life spends a lot of time driving-I have driven 300 miles to make a speech at some club at noon, and then 300 miles back, and did not get paid for it, nor do not expect any.

Mr. FRASER. We get paid $30,000 a year.

Mr. Dowdy. We are serving full time.

Mr. FRASER. I am making the observation we are paid for working in public service.

Mr. DowDY. People on the School Board do it because they want to, because they feel it is their public duty, and public service. And I do not think they should be belittled for it.

Now, Mr. Rosenfield.

Mr. ROSENFIELD. I personally would not want to be compensated per se. I do not want a job. The only reason that I am serving on the School Board is because I feel perhaps I could make a contribution to the community.

However, if we are going to have an elected board, there are many areas where people perhaps cannot afford the $60 or $100 or $300 a year expenses which I know occur-as Dr. Alexander can afford. So perhaps we ought to look into that a little closer, in regards to recouping some of the expenses. But not on the basis of a salary of $2400 a year, more or less.

Dr. HAYNES. I would like to comment on that. I feel that compensation of any kind should be disassociated with the position entirely. I think this is a position that is not forced on anyone. He chooses it, he takes it because he wishes to give this type of dedicated service to a particular community. And therefore I think that it is his choice to make, and therefore it should not be open to the question dealing with compensation for the position-whether it be in terms of services paid for which he controls himself or whether it should be for the job itself, whether it be for the things that he does in connection with his job, or whether it should be for the job itself.

I would like, if I may, to say another word about the elected board, and that is that I think we should not be thinking about the best people to go on the board. That seems to reflect that the board has the business of determining what is the best for the city.

I think that the board should represent-should embody the people who represent communities, so that they are aware of the needs, and they bring to the board the needs in their community, and what the community feels is the best for that community.

And I think that is precisely the democratic process, it is the reason why we have the election process.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to state the reason compensation was included was the fact that at the committee meeting when we were

framing this legislation, it came to light that Maryland and Virginia paid their School Board members.

Mr. ABERNETHY. This may be a bit afield on this subject. A part of the District has been receded to Virginia area, and that which we now call the District was a part of Maryland.

Now, your school situation is pretty tight here, is it not, space-wise, even with the shifting of the students that you anticipate this fall? Is that an accurate statement or not?

Dr. ALLEN. Yes, it is accurate.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Would it help your situation if the schools in this area were associated with the Maryland schools, just as the lower part of what was the District is now associated with the Virginia schools?

Mr. ROSENFIELD. This question could better be answered, sir, by the decree of Judge Skelly Wright. This is exactly what he had in his decree, a metropolitan school system, for better integration and elimination of concentration of schools in the ghetto areas.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Well, isn't it true that your school problems here are going to continue to get more critical, insofar as space and area are concerned?

Mr. ROSENFIELD. I don't think so, Mr. Congressman, because I have confidence that this body will provide us with additional funding to overcome some of the handicaps of our conditions in buildings, and that we perhaps can

Mr. ABERNETHY. Well of course this body provides such funds as are available from the people of the District. We don't manufacture this money up here. It doesn't belong to us. The budget is made up downtown, and the Commissioners levy a certain amount of taxes. We do provide what the levy should be, and such items as shall be taxed. But I don't think you can anticipate any more money than your real estate assessments and the capability of your people to pay will provide.

Mr. ROSENFIELD. If we lacked the classrooms, sir, wouldn't it be wise for this body to look into additional taxes in order for us to have the necessary funding? This is what I mean.

Mr. ABERNETHY. That is done here in Congress every year.
Mr. ROSENFIELD. It has been inadequate to a great degree.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Is it your opinion that the Skelly Wright decision might be made applicable to the situation I have just raised?

Mr. ROSENFIELD. Well, I think he suggested in the decree that the school system should look into, in the area of metropolitan Washington, to do the very thing you just suggested.

Mr. ABERNETHY. I don't know that there would be any objection on the Maryland side. The Congressman from that area are very anxious to serve on this committee, and contribute what they can to the problems over there. And they might welcome this.

Mr. ROSENFIELD. I personally feel that if we were given the necessary funding, that we could have as good a school system as there is in the country. And we don't need Maryland or Virginia to help us out. I think we could do it within our own community.

Mr. ABERNETHY. Well, back to the Skelly Wright decision, do you anticipate that that decision will lead to that which we have just discussed?