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Now, the theories of digging down to the magma and piping water down and using the internal heat of the earth, I think it's a few years in the future. Mr. D'Amico. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HOWARD. Thank you, Mr. McNeer. We certainly appreciate your appearance and your testimony. It has been a great help to the subcommittee.

The subcommittee will meet tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. The witnesses will be Mr. Aubrey Wagner, of the Tennessee Valley Authority, Mr. Harvey Proctor of the Southern California Gas Co., Mr. James Lydon of the Boston Edison Co., and Mr. F. E. Autry of the Florida Power & Light Co.

The subcommittee stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow. (Whereupon, at 4:35 p.m. the subcommittee was adjourned.)

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RELATIONSHIP OF ENERGY AND FUEL SHORTAGES

TO THE NATION'S INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 9, 1972

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON FLOOD CONTROL AND INTERNAL,
DEVELOPMENT OF THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:10 a.m., in room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. James J. Howard, presiding

Mr. HOWARD. The Subcommittee on Flood Control and Internal Development will please come to order.

This morning we continue our inquiry into the widespread shortages of energy that pose a serious threat to the public safety and to the continued development of the Nation. We are seeking to determine the extent of the shortages in all the various forms of energy and what has caused them.

Since these hearings began on August 1, we have heard from a substantial number of Government and industry spokesmen who are directly concerned with this problem. They are agreed on the need for greatly increased development of domestic energy sources and for intensified effort by industry and the public to eliminate wasteful practices that are dissipating far too much of our scarce resources at a time when we can ill afford to do so.

A classic example of this kind of waste can be seen right now in the New York metropolitan area, which has been plagued by power failures over a long period of time. I refer to the World Trade Center in downtown New York, which consumes enough power to supply the entire city of Trenton, N.J. While other users of electricity in the area are being urged by the Consolidated Edison Co. to "Save a watt," the Trade Center keeps its lights burning around the clock in order to save maintenance costs on its fluorescent light starting equipment. Thus far, Consolidated Edison has been unable to persuade the center that the fuels needed to provide its power are scarce and getting scarcer.

We hope that the center can be persuaded to cooperate with is neighbors in the New York area.

In the course of these hearings, it has become increasingly clear to the members of this subcommittee that there has been little or no planning for the real emergency conditions that would be created by power shortages of any long duration in our major urban centers, such as New York. These areas could get by without power for a few hours, but beyond that they would face chaos. And we have seen no evidence that the utilities are prepared to cope with such a crisis.

It is our hope that government and industry officials will concern themselves with this problem in the very near future.

To introduce the first witness that will be testifying before the subcommittee this morning, the Chair recognizes the chairman of our subcommittee, the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Jones.

Mr. Joxes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It is my great pleasure this morning to introduce our Chairman of the Board of the Tennessee Valley Authority, Aubrey J. Wagner.

Mr. Wagner, after he graduated from the University of Wisconsin. came down and joined the TVA in a very minor station, and yet, through the years, he has displayed imagination, capabilities of management, and he has demonstrated that he is probably one of the great and fine and excellent managers of a Government operation that has succeeded beyond the highest expectations that George Norris ever dreamed of ever receiving.

The Tennessee Valley Authority, we think, wears the badge of honor, distinction, and greatness.

Its accomplishments have been such that all of us, throughout the entire Nation, are proud of its demonstrated capabilities, not only for what it has done for our country, but also has been an excellent example for the other countries of the world to emulate, and also the fact that Mr. Wagner recognizes one of the high and noble principles of TVA, and that is the initiation of participation, to become a partner in all of the daily work that is required of a Government agency.

He is recognized today, not only in this country, but throughout the world, for his excellent deportment of a great agency, and I am certainly proud to present Mr. Wagner today.

Mr. Howard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wagner, we wish to welcome you before the subcommittee, and thank you for taking the time to appear before us in this area of vital national concern.

We have copies of your statement. If you would please introduce the gentlemen who are here with you, and then proceed as you wish.

Mr. WAGNER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jones, we are very grateful to you for your generous remarks.

I should say the extent to which TVÅ has succeeded has been because of the vision and imagination of the Congress in passing the original TVA Act, and then its many actions in supporting our programs consistently through the 39 years that we have been in existence. Certainly during that period, Mr. Jones, you have been one of the leaders in that support, and we appreciate it, and I am sure the people of the Tennessee Valley appreciate it.

Mr. Howard. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF HON. AUBREY J. WAGNER, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY; ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES WATSON, MANAGER OF POWER; GEORGE KIMMONS, MANAGER OF ENGINEERING DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION; AND JOHN DUGGER, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL

Mr. WAGNER. Mr. Chairman, we appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss problems of the electric utility industry in meeting the power needs of the Nation.

I have with me this morning Mr. James Watson, manager of power, Mr. George Kimmons, manager of engineering design and construction; and Mr. John Dugger, who is our assistant general counsel.

Now, I have submitted to you my complete statement. I understand you would like to have it briefed, and I will try to do that in about 15 minutes, if that is agreeable with you.

Mr. Howard. Thank you, Mr. Wagner.

Without objection, your entire statement will be made a part of the record.

(The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF AUBREY J. WAGNER, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, TENNESSEE

VALLEY AUTHORITY

Mr. Chairman: We appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss problems of the electric utility industry in meeting the power needs of the Nation. We want to express to you our concern about the reliability of the Nation's power supply. Our comments are based upon our understanding of problems facing utilities throughout the country and specifically reflect TVA's experience within the Tennessee Valley region.

TVA, with nearly 20 million kilowatts of presently installed generating capacity, is the power supplier for an area of approximately 80,000 square miles containing about six million people. TVA generates, transmits, and sells power to 160 municipalities and rural electric cooperatives. These distribution systems in turn retail the power to more than two million electric customers, including homes, farms, businesses, and most of the region's industries. In addition, TVA supplies power directly to 48 industries which have large or unusual power requirements and to 11 Federal installations.

An adequate supply of power on the TVA system is important not only to electric consumers in our area but also to consumers in other areas, for this system is interconnected at numerous points with neighboring systems with which we exchange power. As a result the power supply situation in 36 states can be affected by TVA's ability to generate power. Similarly the generating capability of the systems in these states can have an effect on TVA. This emphasizes the need to look at the energy situation for the entire Nation, and not just at each individual power system.

At present TVA is experiencing no power shortages and barring unprojected schedule delays we expect to be able to meet near term (1972 to 1975) power demands on our system with adequate margins. However, there are other geographic areas in the country, including some near the TVA system, which we understand are now experiencing capacity shortages or anticipating such shortages within the very near future. These areas include portions of the southeast and West central regions and localized sections of the northeast and east central regions.

Looking ahead to the 1975 to 1985 period, we at TWA, along with officials of most other power systems, believe power requirements facing each system have been accurately forecast and that in general adequate facilities are planned to meet this demand. However, considering recent developments in many areas vitally affecting the construction and operation of electric utilitv facilities, it seems overly optimistic to expect that these planned facilities will all actually be available by planned operating dates as necessary to adequately supply the power demand during such period with safe or reasonable margins. If delays similar to those of the past few years continue to occur, it is anticipated that utilities in all regions of the Nation will be adversely affected. For example, it now appears that TVA may experience a tight power supply situation in 1979 because recent changes in licensing procedures have delayed the construction start for one of our nurlear plants which was scheduled for oneration at that time.

As to the long range outlook (1985 and beyond), it is difficult to make reliable projections as to the likelihood or the extent of power shortages. The constantly changing conditions affecting the industry and the increasing and unpredictable amounts of time required to place facilities in service make such estimates extremely tenuous.

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