THE PRESIDENT: Is Mr. Skelly in the room? We would like to hear from him.

MR. JAMES W. SKELLY (Ass't Eng. U. S. Engineer's office), St. Louis, Mo.: Chairman and Gentlemen: I found Mr. Weiss' paper quite interesting; there are some features in the matter of wood preservation that we find of interest in our own work, in connection with boat building, and I regret that he did not refer to that.

He refers to railroad spikes. We are able to use a cheaper grade of timber, the sap woods, which take the preservative very nicely, in fact better than the heart woods do, and we find it is very satisfactory in treating with creosote. Of course, in work like that, and for railroad uses, you do not expect that; you could not paint creosoted wood with satisfaction; the paint would be discolored, and would not stick; again, the paint in such cases would only be for the matter of appearance, because the preservative takes care of the life of the timber. If we were using it for interior work where paint is desirable, we would probably use some other form of preservative-probably some chloride process, which is a reasonably good preservative, in situations which are not too damp and will take the paint.

I regret, also, that Mr. Weiss is not present; there are several matters of information that I should like to have had brought out which are not covered by his paper.

I may say that since I have read the excellent paper which Mr. Weiss has written on the subject of wood preservation, and have seen the figures which he shows illustrating why a spike will hold better in a bored hole than in a tie which is not bored, perhaps I can throw some light on that point. When a spike is driven into a hole in a tie somewhat smaller than the spike, of course the fibres of the wood are not bruised to any considerable extent;, the friction against the spike is nearly at right angles; now, on the other hand, if the spike is driven into the tie without boring, the fibres are cut, broken and crushed down, so that they lie nearly parallel to the spike; and anyone knows in that case, the friction is very much reduced, and it is almost in the position of a nail or spike driven endwise into a log, which, as you know, has not nearly the holding power as when it is driven at right angles.

I rather liked, also, the tone of Mr. Weiss' paper relating to the conservation of our natural resources, and I think that might be extended to several other things besides timber, particularly our mineral

and our petroleum products, more particularly gasoline, at the present time.

Also I thought that idea might be extended in his paper, as we have heard the saying that the man who makes two blades of grass grow where one grew before is doing a greater work for humanity than almost any other.

In fact I have in mind a tradition of some wise king in Prussiayou know all kings are wise, at least they were supposed to be, judging from past history. This king was somewhat perplexed because of the reports of decrease in the timber supply in that country, and he decreed that before a young man could get married that he should plant seven trees. Well, the scheme, so it is reported, worked out admirably in that country. I don't know how it would work over here, however.

It is nevertheless true-carrying out the most admirable ideas in Mr. Weiss' address, and those of a speaker in the earlier part of the evening, that it is only a question of time when, if the present rate is continued, we shall be face to face with the old adage that "Wilful waste brings woeful want."

I thank you, gentlemen. (Applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: Gentlemen, we have present tonight Mr. E. E. Pershall. We would like to hear from him.

MR. E. E. PERSHALL (Supt., Kettle River Co.), Madison, Ill.: Mr. President and Gentlemen: The fact that Mr. Weiss was to be a speaker here tonight was rather a surprise to me; I want to thank one of your members most cordially for inviting me this evening.

Mr. Howard F. Weiss, who is director of an unbiased laboratory run by the Government, is looked upon as being the umpire and referee in our business; in short, we always go to Howard Weiss with the items that we would like to have investigated; and we refer to Howard Weiss in all our arguments when we find that we cannot agree among ourselves; in other words, he is one of the unbiased and most valued authorities in our line of work, and you can see from the scope of the work that he has been doing (all the way from driving square spikes in round holes to dropping packing boxes down through a number of hazards) that there are a number of us calling upon him daily to investigate along a number of different lines of endeavor.

There are two or three points that I would like to make, particularly with respect to the fact that my company operates a timber treating plant which is founded upon the assumption that our timber supply is decreasing, and therefore our business is increasing; that I think may be very well considered at this time.

One of these points was brought to our attention by Mr. Knight, who stated that while Mr. Weiss had figured out to a nicety how long our timber supply will last, there is nobody that can anticipate what our increased demands will be; I think that would be only a matter of conjecture at best; but nevertheless, it is a fair assumption that our timber consumption will increase in the coming years as it has in the past; further than that, if our timber supply lasts fifty-five years, we possibly at least most of us who are here tonight-will be in a sort of "I should worry" attitude. Still, at the same time, fifty-five years is not an enormous space of time.

Another thing that is very pertinent, relative to the exhaustion of our timber supply, is the question as to what parts of the country it will affect most.

A few weeks ago, in the matter of purchasing railroad ties I took a trip down through Southeast Missouri, and came over through some Ohio points, which are about the largest tie producing points tributary to St. Louis and vicinity. Why, I saw timber lands that looked it would take a million years to exhaust. At the same time, I am confident that as long as certain rates are in effect, making a number of trunk lines dependent upon Missouri timber for tie supply, it is not going to be long until the matter of the location of this timber which is estimated to last us fifty-five years is going to bring it very pointedly to our attention in the matter of freight rates. It is quite true that we may figure to the last decimal point that it may last us fifty-five years; but it is a matter of doubt as to whether that timber is located at a point where it can be obtained on a normal freight rate, and if it is not, there will be a very rapid increase in its price because of the fact that a good portion of this timber is not available.

One of the gentlemen speaking here tonight in rather a humorous vein said: "Yes, we have lots of timber, and if you have a pair of rubber boots, you may be able to reach it." The next thing you will need to reach it will be a boat, and next you will have to build a railroad to obtain it. That is the way with some of the things which are pertinent to our tie supply. I believe also that a number of you took with a

pinch of salt the statement in reference to driving a square spike into a round hole—as to its holding power. Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it, and I am glad to inform you that I was over one of our big trunk lines, and in one of the large plants that they own, I saw a machine adapted for boring these ties and these holes; every one of the ties was stamped with the size of rail to be put on it; it said "75 to 100”-in figures; that is, that the tie was dapped and bored for 75 to 100 lb. rails; on the other end of the tie was the date it was treated. So you may rest assured that Director Weiss knows entirely what he is talking about, and there are a number of men who are backing him up.

Someone else indulged in a criticism, with regard to a tie not lasting 16 or 17 years. I believe some of you gentlemen here tonight are from the C. & E. I. Railroad. Some ten or twelve days ago I took a picture of some ties that were laid without any tie plates whatsoever that had been in the track some 16 years; these were ties laid hand running, you understand; they were bought and paid for on tie inspection, counted or inspected, whichever way you may take it—they just paid their money for the ordinary treated tie. Other ties, treated with zinc chloride, had been in the track some 21 years. I took a picture of ties which had been in use for 16 years; as far as I could see, there was a number of very good years of service left in those ties yet—in a great number of those ties. Those ties were remarkable from the fact of their preservation.

Now, it is a fact that the possibilities of timber preservation are just being opened up; our business began many years ago, but it really was not developed to any large extent until the past 25 or 30 years; there were a number of things which we had to learn in our business, and the possibilities seem to be ever enlarging; we have just barely scratched the surface; we have only started to preserve ties and timber against decay; the field of endeavor is practically unlimited..

When we can take a cypress tie, or a loblolly pine tie, both of which are tributary to St. Louis, timbers that lend particular interest to all of us here this evening on account of this fact, and put into that tie a solution, compound or some substance which will not only preserve the tie from decay but far more will strengthen that tie, then you will see that we have entered upon an entirely new field. We have then just opened up another book which contains as many interesting pages

and through which we can go to the same length as we have with the preserving business alone.

When we can take some of the structural timber and put into that timber a compound, substance or solution which will retard its tendency to catch fire, we have entered into still another field of endeavor; in other words, we have a number of things to learn in our business.

I believe that appreciation by the railroad companies of the preserving of ties alone is becoming more marked every day. The question of whether to preserve ties chemically or whether not to treat them lies entirely upon one question-that is, how long will your tie last mechanically?

I do not believe the Terminal Railroad, for example, here in St. Louis is justified in using treated ties in a number of their tracks, for the simple reason that those ties will be cut to pieces by mechanical wear long before they will ever start to rot; and they have no mechanical appliance which will prevent that; even the tie plate will not necessarily guard that tie so that it can be made to last as long as their natural life, taking decay only into consideration. Therefore, in a terminal of this kind, there would be no use in treating the ties; they will never be rotten when taken out of the track; in fact, they may be perfectly sound, so far as decay is concerned, but they will be all worn out and cut to pieces by the heavy engines and heavy rail wear of the constant traffic.

These things bring to our attention the fact that we must take account of these conditions; if it is decay we have to guard against, chemical treatment will pay to the extent that it will compare with the mechanical life of the tie.

I should very much like to stimulate the keen interest in timber preservations that has been shown here this evening, and I take great pleasure in extending to all of you, and I speak advisably, an invitation to come over to our plant at Madison.

We treat approximately 2,000,000 ties a year over there, which is probably 2 per cent of the ties used in the country; we treat possibly 500,000 paving blocks; we have one of the largest plants in the country over there, equipped to treat by any number of processes, and we would be glad to have you come over and see us, if you are interested in the chemical preservation of ties, and treating ties by means of the various processes we are using. (Applause.)