any concealment in the matter? Did not every member of this House know how his own colleagues intended to vote? And would he not disclose that knowledge? But to whom? To the persons in the gallery? Could they discover, while the act of balloting was going forward, for whom those ballots were given? Certainly not. He should not, for his part, denounce the arrangement made by the constitution on this subject. Viva Voce might be a very good mode of voting for President, but, whether good or bad, was not now the question. It was not the mode which the constitution had prescribed. He again repeated, that his object was not to effect any concealment, for himself or for others. The course which each member would pursue, would be well known to this House, and it would be known to the country in time to correct it, if erroneous.

[H. of R.

try, ought never to be disturbed. But, he said, if this subject was to be introduced, he was willing to meet the gentleman from South Carolina. The precedent he had referred to, was a precedent set in party times, and of the federal party. But, said Mr. M'L.. it does not, because it is a precedent of the federal party, come to me with less title to respect. Is this the only precedent of that party? It is the precedent of a party, says the gen tleman, capable of enacting the alien and sedition laws. True, it is: and it is the precedent of a party which or. ganized this Government which put it in motion, after building it up, and established the policy which, wisely cherished, had made this nation, at this day, prosperous at home, and respected abroad. It is the precedent of that administration, to the wisdom of which, time, which tries all things, was fixing its seal. It is a precedent of But his object, Mr. M'L. said, was to prevent the ex- the same party that established the judiciary, built up ertion of an influence which, at some period hereafter, the navy, created an army, and laid the foundations of the might operate to warp and swerve members from the system of national defence, which has afforded to us seconscientious discharge of their duty. It was wholly on curity at home and protection abroad. After copying the ground of precedent that Mr. M'L. was desirous to from that party all these measures of national glory and record his vote in favor of this rule. Surely, no gentle- prosperity, why will not the honorable gentleman reman who knew any thing of history, could need any ar-ceive from it also this precedent, which has the same guments to convince him how tremendous such influ- motives, and the same great objects in view? In all ence as that which he deprecated, might easily become. other cases, the federal party consulted the true interNor was it hard to say how it might be got up. A county ests of the country; and their measures were calculated meeting is held; votes are passed, approving or disap- to subserve them, or it has been folly to adopt them. proving the anticipated conduct of a representative in In the case now brought into precedent, they had the this House, and directing him what course to pursue. same objects in view; and the gentleman will find, if he And if the affair stopped here, there would be no dan- adopt their policy in this respect also, he will reap the ger. But it might go further; constituents may be fruits of this, as he has done of other precedents set by brought to the scene of action, with the intent of intimi- them. dating and overawing the members of this House. The time might come when this would happen, though it may not now; and, if the gentleman from South Carolina shall then live, and cast his eyes on such a scene, Mr. M'L. was persuaded that he would do justice to himself and to his motives on this occasion. That gentleman says that the people have a right to know what is done in this House. Sir, said Mr. M'L. I agree with him that they have. He says further, that he cannot go with me in the doctrine that our constituents have no right to control us in the vote we are about to give for President. But, for myself, I am free to say, that, however I respect the opinions of my constituents in all cases of ordinary legislation in this case I do not know them; I act as a judge and an umpire. I know perfectly that great respect is due to public opinion, when fairly expressed. But even public opinion, if, in my conscientious belief, it has run wild or gone astray, shall not govern me.

The Constitution has imposed it on us as a duty, to choose a President, when the election by the people fails. Now, if my constituents have a right to instruct me, in this respect, the constituents of the gentleman from South Carolina have an equal right to instruct him, and so have the constituents of each member of this House. And, if gentlemen are bound to obey, and the country remains divided, the result will be, that this House cannot choose a President, any more than the people can. The last remedy provided by the Constitution fails, and all those evils rush upon the country at once, which are the obvious result of such failure. It is expressly to guard against this, that the Constitution provides, in the resort to this House, a tribunal which shall be perfectly independent, and above popular con trol.

When up before, Mr. M'L. said, he had referred to the precedent of 1801, as bearing upon the present case. In answer to the argument drawn from it, the gentleman from South Carolina had denied any weight to the precedent, because it was derived from the administration of the Government by the federal party. Mr M'L. expressed his regret that any thing should have fallen from that gentleman, which might have a tendency to revive animosities which, for the happiness of the coun

Mr. FLOYD, of Virginia, said he had no disposition to say much on this subject; but, holding the opinion, which he did, of the most deliberate character, that, not only on this subject, but on all others, there should be no secrecy whatever in the proceedings of the Government, he was not disposed to vote on this question now, without saying a few words. He was not disposed to set a precedent now, to be governed by hereafter in a state of excitement. Is there any excitement now? The opinion of every member of the House, in regard to the Presidential Election, is made up decidedly and distinctly, and can be expressed in open sitting, as well, and no doubt as honestly, as if our doors were closed; and I was sorry to hear the gentleman from Delaware say, that the presence of persons in the galleries could have no effect on his vote: for I am sure there is not a man in the United States who would suppose such a declaration from him necessary.

In reply to the argument that but a few persons, who were industrious enough to get up soon, would be able to obtain admission into the gallery-Mr. F. asked, if so, why should any gentleman wish to close the gallery? Let them indulge their curiosity in this particular-he saw no objection to it. Nor could he agree with the gentleman from Ohio, that intriguers would be always up in the galleries-for that was not the place for them. The gentleman had also reference to a late occasion, not more than a year ago, growing out of this very election, in which there were some symptoms of dissatisfaction in the galleries. [Mr. F. here was going to remark on this illustration, supposing it had reference to the meeting at the Capitol on the night of the 14th February last, but Mr. WRIGHT intimated that that was not the incident to which he referred.] Mr. F. continued. Poor King Caucus having been so much abused and spoken of, sir, I thought the gentleman might have referred to that occasion, where I was myself present-for, sir, I was one of that respectable body, and I am yet proud of it. If, however, he meant not to refer to that case, I will refer to a case, the excitement of which, probably in this House, and in the galleries, and out of the House, never was, and never can be, exceeded. I allude to the Missouri question-during the arduous and protracted discusions

H. of R.]

Election of President.

[FEB. 2, 1825.

of which, no disturbance proceeded from the galleries. they were a law-abiding people. I cannot say as much
I am not, therefore, for setting a precedent now, in an- for the present; for I read in the paper of to-day, that
ticipation of what has never yet happened. If, sir the there is a seventy-four gun ship, built under an act ex-
Representatives of the People, in their capacity of indi-pressly providing for such vessels, which is pierced to
viduals, or acting by states, are capable of being operat carry a hundred and two guns-the same which the Pre-
ed upon by disorders in the galleries, it is high time for sident and a number of other persons have been lately
us to go home. But I apprehend no disturbance. In on a trip of some seventy miles, to look at and admire.
all the trying circumstances of the Missouri question, as On another point, also, the gentleman from Delaware
respectful conduct, at least, was exhibited by the galle. was somewhat defective in his statement: the federal
ries, as by the the House itself. A year or two ago, we administration did raise an army-but they also disband-
were three or four days ballotting for a Speaker of this ed it. If that administration was to be reproached for any
House. Was the election of President more important thing beyond an erroneous construction of the Constitu-
than the election of a Speaker of this House? For himself, tion, it was merely for the extent of their expenditure,
since the amendment of the Constitution, he thought the &c. and in that extent, the latter days of this halcyon
office of Speaker second in the Government. If we can administration were as far in advance of the federal ad-
elect a Speaker without any trouble from the galleries, ministration, as that administration was in advance of
can we not also elect a President? I would not suffer public opinion. Mr. F. concluded by saying, that, as he
the belief to go abroad among the People, from our was against secrecy of every description in the affairs of
over-precautions, that we cannot. It had been sometimes Government, he should vote in favor of this amendment.
said, in reference to the movements of this Government,
that the eye of Europe is upon us. Now, Mr. F. said, he
would not, in the eye of this People, or of Europe, have
this House look like the Conclave of Cardinals, the
Council of Ten at Venice, or even the Star Chamber of
England. He would have the election of a President as
public as possible, and let all the People, and all the
world, see all that is done. There would not, perhaps,
be much to see; the ballot-box would be placed on the
Clerk's table, he presumed, and the States would depo-
site their votes in it as called over-that was the mode of
proceeding in the Caucus last winter, and a more respec-
table and honorable body of men, he must say, he had
never known, and he had no objection to the whole world
being spectators of the ceremony. It seemed that it was
what happened on a late occasion at New York, that the
gentleman from Ohio had referred to. Of that State,
Mr. F. said-for she was a great State-he would avoid
saying any thing; but, if what happened there had hap- Mr. H. said, that he should not deny, (for it would be
pened in Virginia, he should have said as little as possi- unjust for him to do so,) that the Federal party, (the
ble of it for the occurrence of the disturbance in the very party which passed the Alien and Sedition Law,)
galleries of the Legislative body, argued as little in fa- had contributed to the formation of those great and valu-
vor of the body which did not suppress and punish the able institutions to which the gentleman had referred.
authors of it, as of those who disgraced themselves by But he believed that they were, most of them, the work
making it. As he could not see any reason for secrecy, of joint counsels, and a confederate patriotism, when
in conducting the affairs of Government generally, he parties scarcely had a controlling influence on public
was not willing to sanction it in this instance. If the Go- measures; and whilst he admitted that several distin-
vernment was, as the gentleman from Delaware had sug-guished members of the Federal party had left a large
gested, strong enough for the purpose of security at
home, and protection abroad, it had nothing to appre-
hend from disorder in the galleries of this House, its
power being sufficient to enforce due respect to it.

Mr. F. said he was rather sorry, for several reasons, that the gentleman from S. Carolina should have alluded to the old federal party. He had no doubt that,in every thing the federal party had done, not involving its construction of the Constitution, things were as well done as they are now. The error of that party was in not apportioning its legislation and expenditure to the true condition of the country. As to the elder John Adams and Timothy Pickering, he did not at all approve their constitutional opinions, and no one had been more decidedly opposed to them: but a state of things might occur, and he did not know but it had occurred, in which he believed he would take the old ones in preference to it. If the doctrines of the old federal party were obnoxious, he did not see that those of the present day were any better. They undertook to do every thing under the clause of the Constitution to provide for the general welfare; and so, said Mr. F. do we, at the present day.

One thing, Mr. F. thought his friend from Delaware had overlooked. He had said that the federal party built a Navy. So they did, said Mr. F.-and they sold it, too-at least, they provided for the sale of it. The next administration carried the provision into effect, for

Mr HAMILTON again rose, and said, that he felt it due to himself to make a very brief reply to the gentleman from Delaware, if it was merely for the purpose of assuring him that, in the allusion which he had made to the Alien and Sedition Law, that it was neither his intention or desire to arouse from their mouldering ashes those embers of party distractions which, he thanked God, had long since passed by. Much less was it his object to fling imputations on a party, (among whom had been embraced some of the most valued and cher ished friends he had on earth,) which, on a variety of occasions, had rendered services of signal and inestimable value to the country. But he would put it to the candor of the gentleman himself, to say, when he urged a measure for our adoption, on the mere ground of au thority, whether it was not admissible for him to show, that the authority, according to the popular understanding of the country, came rather in a questionable shape.

debt on our gratitude, he could not be unmindful of
what such men as Jefferson, Madison, and Gallatin, had
done, in giving efficiency and popularity to the form of
our Government, by fixing the principles of a wise, eco-
nomical, and prudent administration. He thought it,
however, not a little caustic and unkind in the gentle-
man from Delaware, to appropriate all that had been
done for the country, as the trophies of his party; if,
however, these were consolations furnished after the loss
of power, he surely would not deprive his friend of
their enjoyment. But, after all, he had risen merely
and distinctly to disclaim any intention to wound the
feelings of a single gentleman on that floor, by an al-
lusion which he thought had laid fairly in his view.

Mr. MERCER, of Virginia, then observed, that he was
very happy that the gentleman from South Carolina had
made the explanation he had just given; and he ex-
pressed a hope that all party divisions and party feeling
would be banished on the present occasion. He thought
that the observations of the gentleman from Delaware,
himself, had shown that no great injury was likely to re-
sult from the admission of spectators. If it was really
true, that the sentiments of members were not conceal-
ed from each other, the mere closing of the gallery
would not operate to conceal them from the public, or
materially prevent any influence from out of doors.—
Members were not under any injunction of secrecy, and
whatever was done within, would almost immediately be

C

Election of President.—Suppression of Piracy.

There was then no end to be accom- act by states and without debate. To prevent such posplished by the rule, but solely the prevention of disor-sible inconvenience and embarrassment was one object der; and the only question to be settled was, whether of the rule. the rule was necessary for this purpose. Mr. M. believed it was not: he could conceive no reason to apprehend the smallest danger of it. He thought that, under the protection which they enjoyed on all other days, the House would be as free from disturbance on this, as on other occasions. As to the precedent which had been referred to, Mr. M. made some remarks, which, from his position in the House, the reporter but imperfectly heard.

Johnston, of Lou., Kelly, Lloyd, of Mass., Lowrie, Mills,
Palmer, Parrott, Ruggles, Seymour, Smith, and Van
Buren-15.

NAYS-Messrs. Barton, Bell, Benton, Bouligny,
Branch Brown, Chandler, Clayton, Dickerson, Eaton,
Elliott, Findlay, Gaillard, Holmes, of Maine, Holmes, of
Miss., Jackson, King, of Alab., King, of N. Y., Knight,
Lloyd, of Md., Macon, Talbot, Taylor, Tazewell, Tho-
mas, Van Dyke, and Williams---27.

The question was then taken on the amendment itself, proposed by Mr. SMITH, and negatived without a division.

Mr. MACON then, for the purpose of ascertaining, as he said, whether the Senate were disposed to act at all on this bill, on this subject of granting encouragement to the merchantmen to arm, &c. moved to strike out the fourth section of the bill, which is as follows:

[FEB. 3, 1825.

Mr. TAZEWELL having delivered his views on the fourth section, proceeded to say, that, before he sat down, he should offer a remark on the circumstances which had been stated by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. MILLS.) When this bill was first introduced into the Senate, it was said to come under the patronage of the Executive: at that time some difficulties were started as to the question of public law, which become involved in it. One honorable gentleman whom he had in his eye, (Mr. LLOYD, of Massachusetts,) then very strongly argued before the Senate that, if there were doubts on that question, they ought to receive that bill, because it cam from the Executive. Those, it was said, who had consumed forty years in turning over the pages of Grotius, Puffendorf, and Vattel, by the midnight lamp, were far more capable of judging on this subject than the Senate could be. He noticed this circumstance

"Sec. 4. And be it further enacted, That the command-now to express a hope, as an individual member, that, ers and crews of any armed merchant vessel of the whensover any measure might be in discussion before United States be, and they are hereby, authorized to re- the Senate, on any future occasion, that gentlemen would capture any vessel and cargo taken by pirates upon the not introduce, by way of argument, in that House, an coast of the Island of Cuba, or the other Islands afore-opinion of the Executive, as an authority and obligation. said, or on the adjoining seas; and such vessel, so re- It was unparliamentary, and certainly wrong. The Senate, captured, being brought into any judicial district of the he said, was, under the Constitution, placed as a check United States, shall be adjudged to be restored by any on the Executive, with authority to revise the acts reCourt of the United States, having admiralty jurisdiction commended by the President; and was this revising therein, to the former owner or owners of the same, he power, to be told, they should adopt any measure beor they paying for salvage not less than one-eighth, nor cause it was recommended by the Executive? It was more than one-half of the true value of the said vessel language not known in the Constitution of the United and cargo, at the discretion of the Court, for the benefit States. If a case should ever occur, that the Executive of the recaptors, and in such proportions as the Court might have a greater attachment to any particular shall direct, which payments of salvage shall be made measure than it had to this, he trusted it would stand on without any deduction whatsoever." its own merits, and not upon the recommendation of the Executive.

On this motion a debate arose, of considerable duration, in which Messrs. MACON, MILLS, TAZEWELL, Mr. MILLS said he felt himself exonarated, in the BARBOUR, and SMITH, took part. The debate turned remarks made by the gentleman from Virginia. He was principally on the expediency of inserting in this bill yet, however, to learn that it was unparliamentary and provisions already substantially in force; on the proprie-improper for the Senate to make use of the advice of ty of making any discrimination in the amount of salvage to be allowed for re-captures from the pirates in the West Indies, and recaptures elsewhere; whether proper to fix the amount by the bill, or leave it to the discretion of the Court, &c. In the course of the debate, Mr. SMITH moved to strike out the words which made the section applicable alone to Cuba and the West Indies, so as to leave the provision general; but no question was taken before the adjournment.

Towards the close of the discussion of the questions just stated, the debate took a turn apart from the discussion of details, and assumed the following course:

Mr. MILLS concluded his remarks on the amendment, by observing, that he felt he ought to have made the avowal the other day, in relation to the source from which this bill was derived. It had been called by some a measure of the Executive; others thought that the Executive Department of Government had this burthen thrown on him which did not belong to him, and he was held responsible. Mr. M. said, so far as he was concerned, he was willing that the Executive should be disabused, if he had been abused by any responsibility of this sort. It was a bill from the Committee on Foreign Relations; and inasmuch as the Executive had sanctioned it by his message, every honorable gentleman might apply this message to those provisions of the bill to which it was applicable. When he said it was not a measure of the Executive, he wished to be distinctly understood. The Secretary of State was called on, not for the purpose of drawing a bill to embody his own views, but to reduce to proper form the propositions which the committee themselves had agreed on; and so far as this went, the Secretary was concerned in preparing this bill, and no farther. It was not to be supposed, that, in consequence of being thus officially called on, he made himself or the Executive responsible for the propriety of that course.

the Executive, after having condescended to ask it. If they did not intend it should have any effect, why did they ask it? The Senate, by a solemn vote, called on the President to know what had been done in relation to the suppression of piracy, and what he further recommended should be done? They themselves, had therefore, committed the first fault, in asking that advice; and it certainly was proper to refer to that information after having called for it.

Mr. LLOYD, of Mass. then rose, and said, he was called, rather unexpectedly, before the bar of the Senate, to answer the charge made against him; but he could only throw himself on his country, and plead not guilty. He did refer to the opinion of the Executive to enforce the bill. There was not a member of the commit. tee but understood that it had been submitted to the Executive consideration, and he thought it was as par liamentary to refer to those distinguished living authori ties-those celebrated men who had spent forty years of their lives in studying public law, as to refer to the lex scripsit, the opinions of dead men, delivered ages ago. He thought so still, and were a similar case to occur, he should pursue a similar course. As far as any inference might be drawn of a blind devotion, on his part, to any man, or set of men under Heaven, he solemnly disclaimed it. He meant to refer to the high national authorities in support of his own opinion: he felt how feeble he was, unsupported by such authority, and he hoped the gentleman would pardon him for saying that, as long as he had the honor of a seat on that floor, he should, in similar circumstances, pursue a similar course.

Mr. TAZEWELL said he should be very sorry to suffer the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. LLOYD,) to remain, for one instant, under the impression that he intended any thing personal or disrespectful to him, or any one else: nothing could be farther from his idea than that; but, as a member of this Senate, he thought

it did not comport with the dignity of parliamentary proceedings to allude to the opinion of the Executive, or any other branch of this Government, as an argument in debate. He contended it was unparliamentary, and had a right so to contend. The gentleman from Mass. might adopt the same course again, and he (Mr. T.) should feel himself bound again to make use of the same remark as often as the opinion of the Executive was, in the same manner, referred to there.*

[Sen. & H. of R.

had nothing to do with the bill-it was a mere individual concern. The gentleman from Mass. (Mr. MILLS, a member of the committee,) was asked to prepare the bill, merely in execution of the plans which the committee had proposed. The Executive was not responsible they having only the manual part to perform. But, when he stated that a blockade would be a material measure, then every gentleman favorable to that measure was justified in referring to that answer as the opinion of the Executive.

Mr. BARBOUR begged leave to make a remark or two. He said that when this subject was first presented Mr. HOLMES, of Maine, said, he agreed to the mode to the Senate, it was placed on its true ground. The of proceeding, He said their committees had in some Committee on Foreign Affairs wished to have suspend-instances called the Heads of the Departments before ed their report till they received an answer from the them. They had asked them questions, had received Executive to a resolution of the Senate, calling on the their answers, and had furthermore reported their anExecutive to state what means had been employed, and swers to the Senate. Whether that was the correct what additional means were necessary, for the suppres- course or not, he thought was important for the Senate sion of piracy; but, from the urgency of the case, and to know; whether they were to report an opinion of a express instructions from the Senate to make a speedy member of the cabinet, or Executive, to the Senate, unreport, the committee had, on its own responsibility, less it were made officially, was a question he should like and its own views of the subject, reported a bill, and it to see settled. His opinion was, that if the Head of a had been a subject of satisfaction and congratulation to Department was called before a committee for his opi the committee, to find that their own views, and those of nion, that opinion should be communicated to the Sethe Executive, were so nearly allied. As regards this nate in writing. To refer to the opinion of the Execuparticular case, said Mr. B., the Senate called on the tive, or any member of the cabinet, unless it were an Executive to ascertain what were the means best cal- official opinion, would not, perhaps, be correct. culated to effect the intended object. The Executive is permanent, has the management of international affairs, and is fully advised of the measures that are necessary to effect any particular purpose. The Senate, acting as a body, called on him for information-and is it to be considered as acting contrary to the meaning of the constitution, for any member to refer to that answer which was given, to justify the course recommended? It

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.-SAME DAY. Mr. CALL, of Florida, submitted the following reso lution :

Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be instructed to inquire whether either of the judges of the District Courts of Florida have received fees for

*NOTE. The day on which this debate appeared in the National Intelligencer, the following letter was addressed by Mr. LLOYD, of Massachusetts, to the Editors, which was also published, and which it is thought proper, in justice to Mr. L. to append to the debate here.

February 4, 1825. Messrs. Gales & Seaton: Be pleased to insert the following in the next National Intelligencer, and oblige yours, res pectfully, J. LLOYD.

GENTLEMEN: In giving a condensed account, in your paper of this morning, of a discussion that took place in the Senate yesterday, Mr. LLOYD, of Massachusetts, is represented as having said, "that those who had spent forty years in turning over the pages of Grotius, Vattel, and Puffendorf, by the midnight lamp, were far more capable of judging on the subject, "(the suppression of piracy, then under consideration,) than the Senate could be."

This is erroneous. Mr. LLOYD neither entertains that opinion, nor did he make so indecorous a comparison; and if a reference be made to his remarks, he trusts they will not be found to contain any expression warranting an imputation which be would unwillingly have attached to him, however much he might have been misunderstood.

In the letter of the Secretary of the Navy, of December 1st, communicated to Congress with his message by the President, the Secretary expressed his opinion, that, unless the co-operation of the local governments in the West Indies could be ob tained, "additional means for the suppression of piracy ought to be entrusted to the Executive, to be used in such manner as "experience may dictate."

In accordance with this information, when the subject came up for consideration, a resolution passed the Senate, requesting the President to communicate to it information "as to the additional means necessary and expedient to be entrusted to the, Executive."

In reply to this, the President stated, that three expedients occurred

One by pursuit on shore,

Another by reprisals; and

A third by the blockade of the ports of the Island.

These documents were all printed and promulgated, by being laid on the tables of the Senators, and published in the newspapers, and, in the opinion of Mr. LLOYD, furnished legitimate materials for the pending discussion, when the Committee of Foreign Relations brought forward a bill, authorizing, under certain, and very guarded circumstances, the imposition of a blockade of some of the ports on the Island of Cuba.

In advocating this principle of the bill, coinciding with information thus formally elicited and promulgated, Mr. LLOYD, thought it both correct and pertinent, to endeavor to fortify his own opinions, by a reference to the high authority from whence the advice had been received; and in availing of this support, he felt no reluctance, in characterising the source from whence it came, in the terms which he thought merited, nor in expressing his stronger reliance on the judgment of living authorities, thus distinguished by their experience and acquirements, rather than on the lex scripta (not scripsit) of past ages, given under circumstances having perhaps little analogy to the subject under debate, the suppression of piracy, or to the state of the world at the present period.

This brief exposition, Mr. LLOYD considers as due to those whom he has the honor to represent, among the freest of the free, as well as to himself; for, while he will always delight to render honor to whom honor is due, he has in the course of a public life, now not a short one, never bowed the knee to any man in power, nor been an advoca te of the slavish doctines of human infallibility, nor of passive obedience, or non-resistance; nor has he ever sought, or received, official favor or patronage for himself, or others; but, while making this declaration, he would be ungrateful were he not to acknowledge, that he has never failed to meet, as occasions for their manifestation presented, from every member of the General Government with whom he has been brought into contact since 1808-although sometimes at variance with them in political opinions-all the kind and gentlemanly attentions which he wished to receive, or was entitled to expect.