Sidebilder
PDF
ePub

DEC. 22, 1824.]

Gratitude to Lafayette.

[H. of R.

ceive it: that we shall not render it as a debt due to him, but as a gratification of our own feelings, and of the feelings of this nation. And, notwithstanding what has occurred here, I trust he will accept the offer, not as his right to receive, but as ours to give, as a gratification to ourselves, and as a small testimony of the gratitude of the nation. Mr. McD. trusted that the House would noted by it? The correct distinction between the two attempt to investigate what cannot be proved, and will not; that it would not descend to the investigation of facts which are known to the whole world, and are in terwoven with the most interesting and important parts of our own history.

It

ced against this bill, than this bill does-instances of money granted merely in the way of gratuity, the present case being by no means one of that character. Was it, at this day, to be seriously argued that General Lafayette stood, in relation to our Revolution, on the footing of one of the people whose liberties were assertcases had been drawn elsewhere, that, where a foreign enemy invades a country, all its inhabitants are equally embarked in the contest, and must abide by the consequences of it, it not being in the power of the government to indemnify all individual losers in such a war. Mr. MANGUM, of North Carolina, expressed his deep But was that the case with a generous foreigner, whose regret that, at this stage of a business which must for fortune and talent are liberally embarked in the defence three weeks past have occupied a considerable portion of the oppressed party in the contest? Surely not. of the attention of the members of this House, a motion never can be the feeling of America that we should deal should have been made to recommit this bill to investi- to him precisely the measure of strict right. But, let the gate facts in the case: and he said he could not view present case be put even on that ground: it was proved the present motion in any other light than as one which by the exposition of the gentleman from Louisiana, and was in effect to test the success of the present measure. by facts of historical notoriety, that the proposed grant On this subject, Mr. M. said, he most heartily concurred would still be inadequate to the demands of justice. Mr. in the views of the gentleman who had just taken his M. therefore expressed an earnest hope, that, as Gen. seat. What, said he, is the object of this reference? Lafayette had set up no claim in this case, inasmuch as To go into a calculation of pounds, shillings, and pence, he was not a plaintiff in this action, and the case was not with our distinguished benefactor, which he would re-to be tried upon technical pleadings, that the services ject with disdain, and which could not but fill his breast which he rendered in the morning of his fortunes, would with scorn at the proposition. Such an investigation be met by this nation in a corresponding spirit, now that would be, besides, absolutely impracticable, except by he is in the eve of his life. submitting the private concerns and feelings of this dis- The present motion, said Mr. M. I must consider as tinguished person to a scrutiny which he would shrink testing the strength of the bill; and sure I am, that, if we from, and which we ought not to require. Are we to listen to the voice of all those people, who, in their percall upon that individual to lay before us his vouchers son, felt the horrors and privations of the Revolution, or for voluntary donations for our benefit forty years ago? of the true descendants of their fathers who did feel Are we thus to compensate those services which are them, we shall very much misrepresent them if we reknown even to every school-boy in our country? I fuse to make the old age of Lafayette easy and comfortshould deem such an examination, if its institution was able. As one of the committee, I have felt it my duty thought necessary, fatal to this bill, because the objects to say that I decline a technical examination of the serwhich it would profess to seek after could never be ob- vices of this veteran, because his services were never tained. And is it believed, by the mover and support-rendered in that spirit, and the people do not wish to ers of this proposition, that General Lafayette, his for- meet them in it. tunes being reduced, has been invited to our shores in the imposing manner we have seen; that he has been received every where with an enthusiasm which does honor to the sons of heroes-to be called upon here to produce vouchers for his claims upon our gratitude?

Mr. HERRICK, of Maine, then rose, and said, that from the motion that he had submitted to the House, it might be supposed that he was in favor of the indefinite postponement of the bill, as being opposed to the bill itself. He was glad to have an opportunity to explain his views, and remove any false impression which might have been made in this particular. So far from being opposed either to the principle or to the form of the bill, he was, on the contrary, prepared to vote for almost any sum which the House should think fit to give, and had flattered himself that the bill, as introduced by the committee, would have passed the House without opposition: he did hope that there would not even be one word of discussion on the subject; but, from the course which things had already taken, he felt apprehensive that any thing which the House might now do would be ineffectual, as he greatly doubted whether, after what had happened, the individual concerned would accept the donation, should it be made. This was one of those acts, of which it might emphatically be said, that, if done at all,

I have great respect, said Mr. M. for the scruples of gentlemen on the score of precedent; but, for myself, I believe that such a case as this can never again occur; and, if it shall, will this people shrink from meeting it? The gentleman from Louisiana has given an exposition which, it appears to me, must satisfy every one who heard it as to the right of General Lafayette to receive compensation from the United States for services and sacrifices. But, sir, are we to spread a Procrustean bed for the feelings of that distinguished individual to be tortured upon? Are we to give the exact pound of flesh, without one jot of blood? Is such the feeling in which the proceeding towards General Lafayette originated? If it is, the reproach is yet just, the adage is ratified, that Republics are ungrateful. I hope, sir, that the bill will not be recommitted, and that this House will not un-it must be done quickly. If we are to sit, in cold debate, dertake to render justice to merits and services such as discussing and disputing the minutiae of such a bill, our Lafayette's under the influence of a petifogging disposi- | passing it, he feared, would be in vain. Yet, still, if gention adapted to no higher vocation than litigation in tlemen shall conclude to pass this bill, they might rely small affairs before inferior courts. I could wish, for the upon it, that he, for one, would never oppose its pashonor of the American name, and still more for the hon-sage, when that question was fairly presented to him. or of this House, that no such affair as this should have Mr. BARTLETT said, that he rose, not to discuss the been meditated, unless we get out of the discussion of it in a manner more reputable than I begin to apprehend we shall.

measure before the House, but to submit a proposition, which he hoped would render discussion unnecessary. He should regret deeply to see the Journal burdened Mr. M. said he did not understand, from what had with records of yeas and nays, motions and amendments, been said, that any opposition was made to this bill on in a case like this. He had hoped that this bill would have the score of principle. If we turn over our records, said passed in a manner as spontaneous as unanimous. He he, we shall find divers instances of appropriations in a had hoped that, when we sent for Gen. Lafayette, and much stronger manner impugning the principles advan-invited him, by a public act, to our shores, it was not te

VOL. I.-4.

H. of R.]

Gratitude to Lafayette.

[DEC. 22, 1824.

ask who he is, what he has done, and why we have call- principle of the bill before them, for, on that topic, he ed him; he had supposed that we knew who Gen. La- was persuaded there existed within those walls but one fayette was, and that none needed to ask what he had sentiment. He rose chiefly with the view of corrobodone. But he had had reason, since the delay and op-rating some of the statements which had been submitposition which had occurred to such a bill as this, to ted to the House by the honorable member from Louisiathink that it would be more honorable to the country, na, (Mr. LIVINGSTON.) In doing so, he thought he should that yet further delay should now take place, in order, be able to win to the support of the bill the honorable if possible, to give unanimity to its act on the subject. member from Ohio, (Mr. CAMPBELL;) and, in so desigI cannot but remember, said he, that it is scarce ten days nating him, he did not use the language of ordinary since we passed, with great unanimity, a bill to reward courtesy, for he cherished habitual respect for his nonour own services, and I did suppose that the services of orable friend. He rose, Mr. M. said, with no faint hope, Lafayette were at least as well known, and as highly es- however feeble bis resources for the task, that he should timated, as ours. He was desirous that the bill should prevail on all the gentlemen, who, to his great regret, pass, not as a forced, but as a deliberate measure. He was differed from the majority of the House on the details unwilling to press it against an opposition which, if per- of the bill, and for whose scruples he entertained the severed in, must operate to take away all the grace of most indulgent respect, to unite with the friends of the our gratuity. And, under these impressions, he was de- bill in an unanimous vote. The question presented by sirous of postponing the motion to recommit, and this the opponents of the bill, admitted of but two doubts, whole subject, till Monday next. of the facts or the inferences from them, on which the assertion is grounded, that the grant proposed by the bill, to our illustrious guest, falls short of his pecuniary claims upon our justice.

Mr. CAMPBELL, of Ohio, then rose, and observed, that, having yesterday had the courage, perhaps some would say the audacity, to make some little opposition to this bill, which had been precipitated into this House like a comet through the atmosphere, it might be expected that he should give some explanation of the reasons which had influenced him. He did not rise to oppose the resolution for postponement, for he was himself in favor of it. He wished, for himself, some further time for reflection, and he could not but say that there was some little ill nature in the remark of the gentleman from North Carolina, (and he was sorry to say so, for no gentleman on that floor was, in general, more decorous in debate,) that two weeks had already been spent in this subject. But why had this time been allowed the committee, unless to give them opportunity, by reflection, to mature the measure they should present to the House. The gentleman should remember, that to the House nothing like this time had been allowed-indeed no time at all. And though the minds of the gentlemen of the committee might be fully made up, yet they were not to expect that, therefore, the minds of other gentlemen must also be so. It was not strange that, on a subject like this, there should exist some diversity of opinion. For his own part, Mr. C. said, he had never been opposed to the principle of the bill, and he would candid. ly state how far he had felt willing to go. He would have been in favor of granting a sum of $50,000, and ailowing General Lafayette the pay of a Major General for life. Had this been done, would it not have been quite as decorous, as attempting to force the bill through the House in its present form, without one word of explanation from the committee? Let us, said Mr. C. have time to commune with each other, and with the gentlemen who brought in the bill, as they have had time to commune with each other; but, if we must be taken by surprise now, I, for one, shall oppose the bill, and am willing to meet the consequences of that opposition, be they what they may-even though I may be so unhappy as to incur the displeasure of the gentleman from Louisiana, whose good opinion I confess I value as much as that of any other citizen I know. I feel that I have a duty to perform; I certainly shall perform it, nor can any power of man prevent me from doing it. With these observations, Mr. CAMPBELL expressed a hope that the motion of the gentleman from New Hampshire (Mr. BARTLETT) would prevail, for a postponement of this question for a few days.

After some explanation from the SPEAKER, as to the point of order, Mr. TUCKER, of Va. moved to lay the bill on the table, his object being to give time for conciliating an unanimous vote on the bill. The question being taken, this motion was negatived by a large majority.

[ocr errors]

Having been himself the medium through whom the manuscript which had been just read, had passed into the hands of the honorable member from Louisiana, he felt it to be incumbent on him to verify its authenticity. On its very face, which bore marks of antiquity correspondent with its ancient date, it carried strong internal evidence of its truth, which was corroborated by a knowledge of the highly respectable channel through which it had very recently reached America. It moreover referred to a prior document submitted by the writer, who had charge of the estates of General Lafayette, to the. Bureau of Emigrants of the Department of the Seine, early in the year 1793; at a time when the Revolutionary government of France sought to accomplish two purposes by inquiring into the condition and the causes of the dilapidation of the estates of General Lafayette, then proscribed, and driven from France by their crimes and their injustice.

This agent, Mons. Morizet, with a modesty derived from the example of the amiable man he served, reduces the sum of those expenditures which General Lafayette had incurred in the service of the United States, the cost of two voyages to France, and had in this account, stricken from the entire sum of 1,033,000 francs, 333,000. But, as these voyages, attended at the time with peculiar hazard, were undertaken at the request of General Washington, and for the obvious benefit of the United States, these expenses, instead of being deducted, should be added to the account. Toa sum, therefore, exceeding two hundred thousand dollars, should be added the interest for the forty three years which have elapsed since the last expenditure of this long acccount, which would swell it to thrice the amount of the proposed appropriation.

The honorable member from Louisiana very justly computed the half pay equitably due to General Lafayette, for the same period; but, in omitting to notice the interest as equitably due on it, he left out a sum which would have swelled that single item to an amount equivalent to the object of our present debate.

With respect to the generous release, by General Lafayette, of the land which he had acquired near New Orleans, under our own grant, Mr. M. said he was perfectly acquainted with all the circumstances attending the transaction, through the voluntary communication of the Commissioner of the Land Office; and that they left no doubt on his mind of the validity or value of the title which General Lafayette had released, with equal generosity and delicacy.

The United States granted to General Lafayette, in part as his legal bounty, and in part as a manifestation of Mr. MERCER, of Virginia, then rose, not, he observ- their esteem, 11,540 acres of land, to be chosen out of ed, to wound the feelings of the House, by debating the I any of the public lands of the United States. He chose,

DEC. 22, 1824.]

Gratitude to Lafayette.

[H. of R.

spark of inspiration electrified all Europe; one common soul pervaded all Christendom, and poured her armed nations on the plains of Asia.

for the location of a part of it, to use a term borrowed from our laws, an ungranted territory, which nearly environed the city of New Orleans. A large part of this location has since become the heart of the city. In the Contrast the heroism of that age with the solitary selfmidst of it stands the custom house; it is the theatre of devotion of Lafayette! When I look back to the early extensive trade, and covered with numerous and splen- period of our Independence, and behold our own unredid edifices The title of General Lafayette to this land, cognized ministers in France, with a tenderness which under our own grant, was indisputable. Some years does them immortal honor, remonstrating with the after he had appropriated it to his use, the Corporation young enthusiast on the hazard and hopelessness of his of New Orleans petitioned Congress to grant to them the projected enterprise in our behalf-when I hear them, portion of the public territory within a distance of six hun- in a tone of generous remonstrance, tell him that our dred yards around their city, and the National Legislature, cause was sinking, and they had not even a vessel to ofunapprized of the claims of the prior occupant, conceded fer him for his perilous voyage, and hear him reply, I what they asked. Of the superior title of General La- | have, then, no time to lose! I cannot, turning from this fayette, to the land covered by this subsequent grant, scene to that before me, bring myself to believe, that there could be no doubt. Why he did not prosecute gentlemen, who differ from the obvious majority of this and maintain his claim to this estate, so honorably and House, need to rest three nights upon their pillow, bejustly acquired, has been already fully stated to the fore they can arrive at unanimity upon this bill. I cannot House. This donation had been made him without his but believe, sir, that, when we come to the vote, we knowledge, in the fullness of our hearts, touched as shall do it with one heart, and that we are now as well they were with a knowledge of his wants, as a token of prepared as we shall be on Monday next. We have now our sympathy, esteem, and gratitude; and he felt that met our opponents in the spirit of friendly explanation; it did not become him to question the precise extent of we have complied with their wishes-stated, recapitu such a grant. lated; and, I fervently trust, they are ready to act with us for the honor of our common country.

The value of the land which he so magnanimously relinquished, has, doubtless, not been over-rated, at four hundred thousand dollars.

For himself, said Mr. M. he had hoped that the stock which the Senate had proposed to issue-and he greatly preferred their bill to that which had originated in this House, instead of being made redeemable among the last debts of the nation, would have been irredeemable forever, that it might forever remain a memorial of the gratitude of the American People to their illustrious benefactor. He had hoped that the land presented with the stock, instead of being limited to a poor township, would have reached such an extent, as to realize, in its future appreciation, to the descendants of General Lafayette, the entire debt of this nation to their generous ancestor. He did not mean to comprehend our debt to this, our benefactor, for his services, but for his pecuniary advances and their accruing interest.

Mr. STORRS, of New York, then rose, and said, that, as one of the members of the committee to whom this Can there remain a question, then, but that the equi- subject had been confided by the House, he felt it his table claims of General Lafayette upon the United duty to that committee, and to himself, to say a few words States, were he disposed to substantiate them, would ex-in vindication of the course which had been pursued in ceed a million of dollars? relation to this bill. Complaints had been urged by some members of the House, that no statement had been produced of what seemed to be considered as "the ac counts" of Gen. Lafayette. The committee had never insulted that individual by asking, in any quarter, for such things as his accounts. After the President of the United States had, in his solemn address to both Houses of Congress, recommended the services and sacrifices of General Lafayette as worthy of legislative regard, and had advised that such a provision should be made for him as "might correspond with the sentiments of the American people, and be worthy of the character of this nation," what had a committee to whom that recommendation was committed by this House, to do with his accounts? Were they to erect themselves into a Committee of Claims where no claim was made; and what was more, where no such thing as a claim would be en dured by that House, as violating the feelings of a man whom it wished to honor? Ask for his accounts! Sir, I would not perform such a task. Not even were you to order me, could I do it without insulting him. No, sir, we had no such matters as the accounts of General Lafayette to lay before the House.

As to his services to our cause—the cause of freedom in Europe and in America, their value is immeasurable. There is not a man who now, or may hereafter tread our soil or breathe our air, with the elastic spirit of liberty, who is not, or will not owe him an inestimable debt -a debt to be felt, not to be computed. I defy the united powers of Euclid and Archimedes to calculate or measure the height and depth, the length and breadth Sir, let us remember that the eyes of Europe are this of the obligation of America to her benefactor. It is moment upon us. Her monarchs, her people, are anxhere, said Mr. M. (laying his hand upon his heart.) It iously waiting to see how we shall act. The despots of belongs to the soul, and no gauge can graduate it. the old world are anxious to know whether, after invitAre gentlemen alarmed at what is called the exam- ing Lafayette to our shores-after offering to send a naple, the precedent, we are about to offer to our suc- tional ship to bring him over-after welcoming him from cessors? I have labored, said Mr. M. with all the pow-city to city, we are about to send him back and subject ers of memory, to recall to my mind an example of disinterested and heroic benevolence which can form a parallel to the conduct of Lafayette; and if the history of the past affords none, why need we not trust the future? The only spirit of prophecy which is not of divine inspiration, exists in the analogy which infers the future from the past.

But what is the character of the example from which this unfounded apprehension arises? Was it not to our fathers, is it not to us, and will it not be to our posterity, invaluable? Need we go back to the crusades to demonstrate the influence, the contagion of chivalrous enthusiasm? No sooner was the consecrated banner of Peter the Hermit unfurled for the recovery of the Redeemer's sepulchre from the infidel Saracen, than one

him to the sneers of royalty, and, with him, to expose ourselves and the cause of free government to their reproaches. The question we are called to decide is, whether America, for whom he shed his blood, devoted his fortune, and dedicated his talents and his virtues, is about to send back her benefactor in the face of Europe, to be the object of their scorn, and leave the record of our proceedings as a monument of the feelings of the American people. The question before us is, whether we will support the principles of our own government in our conduct towards one who has been considered on both continents as the great Apostle of Liberty, and justly so considered; for, next to the great Apostle of the Gentiles himself, has this man served the best interests of mankind. Next in value to those which the one disse

[blocks in formation]

minated, are the blessings which the other has labored to spread among the nations of the world. The question is, whether his services are worth a memorial? This, it is true, is not needed for his character; as has been well said on a public occasion, "history has already taken charge of his fame;" but, as was justly observed by the presiding officer of this House, General Lafayette now stands among posterity, and our act this day is to be the judgment of posterity on his merits and his fame. Are we then here to record our value for civil liberty and all the blessings it bestows, or is it that we may send one of the greatest benefactors her cause has ever known, back to his country as a witness of the ingratitude of Republics? But I said I would not speak of his services, nor will I. Whoever has known or read our history can be no stranger to what he has done for us. It is to be known to-day what we think to be due at least to our character as a nation.

The question was then taken, on the motion of Mr. SLOANE, and decided in the negative.

[DEC. 23, 1824.

precluded, by the place he held, from the expression of
his sentiments in relation to either the principle or the
form of the bill, he requested of the House that he might
be permitted so far to give expression to his feelings, in
relation to both, as to record his vote with those of the
other members; and, leave having been promptly given,
the Clerk called the Speaker's name, and his vote was
recorded in the affirmative.
When the House adjourned.

IN SENATE-DECEMBER 23, 1824.

GENERAL LAFAYETTE.

The bill passed by the House of Representatives, "concerning General LAFAYETTE," was brought to the Senate for concurrence.

The bill was read the first time, and ordered to be read a second time; it was then, on motion of Mr BARBOUR, read a second time, without objection, and taken up in committee of the whole. No amendment or objection The question was then taken, on the motion of Mr. being made to the bill in committee of the whole, it was GAZLAY, to strike out 200,000 dollars, the amount pro-reported to the Senate, and, on the question of ordering posed to be paid to General Lafayette, and to insert the bill to a third reading, it was carried with but one 100,000, and decided in the negative by a large ma- audible dissenting voice. jority.

The question was then taken on ordering the bill to be engrossed, and decided in the affirmative by a large majority.

It was then ordered that the bill should be read a third time to-day.

The bill was then read a third time, accordingly, and the question thereupon decided, on request of Mr. BEECHER, by Yeas and Nays, as follow:

The bill was then, on motion of Mr. SMITH, and by unanimous consent, read the third time, PASSEN, nemine contradicente, and returned to the other House with a message acquainting that House therewith.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.-SAME DAY. After the minutes of yesterday's proceedings were read

Mr. HERKIMER, of New York, rose, and stated, that he had yesterday been prevented by indisposition from voting on the passage of the bill "concerning General LAFAYETTE," and that he now asked permission of the House to have his vote taken and recorded on that bill.

The SPEAKER put the question, and, it appearing that one member voted against granting permission, by which Mr. HERKIMER was precluded from voting, (the Rules of the House requiring an unanimous vote to suspend a rule)—

Mr. HERKIMER then asked the indulgence of the House to say, that, if he had heen in the House, he would cordially have voted in favor of the bill.

YEAS.-Messrs. Abbot, Adams, Alexander, of Vir. Alexander, of Tenn., Allen, of Mass., Allen, of Tenn., Allison, Archer, Bailey, Baylies, Barber, of Con., P. P. Barbour, J. S. Barbour, Bartlett, Bartley, Bassett, Blair, Breck, Brent, Brown, Buchanan, Buckner, Cambreleng, Campbell, of S.C. Carter, Carey, Cassedy, Clark, Cocke, Collins, Conner, Cook, Craig, Crowninshield, Culpeper, Cushman, Day, Durfee, Dwinell, Dwight, Eaton, Eddy, Edwards, of Penn., Ellis, Farrelly, Floyd, Foot, of Con., Foote, of N. Y., Forsyth, Forward, Frost, Fuller, Garrison, Gatlin, Govan, Gurley, Hall, Hamilton, Harris, Harvey, Hemphill, Henry, Herrick, Hobart, Hogeboom, Holcombe, Hooks, Houston, Ingham, Isacks, Jenkins, Mr. LITCHFIELD, of New York, and Mr. FINDLAY, Jennings, J. T. Johnson, Kent, Kidder, Kremer, La- of Pennsylvania, were in the same situation, and were in throp, Lawrence, Lee, Leftwich, Letcher, Little, Living-the same manner precluded from expressing their sentiston, Locke, Long, Longfellow, McArthur, McDuffie, ments in favor of the measure. McKean, McKee, McKim, McLane, of Del., Mangum, Mallary, Markley, Martindale, Marvin, Matlack, Mercer, Miller, Mitchell, of Penn., Mitchell, of Md., Moore, of Ken., Moore, of Ala., Morgan, Neale, Nelson, Newton, O'Brien, Olin, Owen, Patterson, of Pen., Plumer, of N. H., Plumer, of Pen., Poinsett, Rankin, Reed, Reynolds, Richards, Rose, Saunders, Sandford, Sharpe, Arthur Smith, Alexander Smyth, Wm. Smith, Spaight, Standefer, A. Stevenson, J Steph nson, Stewart, Stoddard, Storrs, Swan, Talliaferro, Tattnall, Taylor, Ten Eyck, Test, Thompson, of Penn., Thompson, of Geo., Tomlinson, Tracy, Trimble, Tucker, of Va., Tyson, Udree, Vance, of N. C., Van Rensselaer, Van Wyck, Warfield, Wayne, Webster, Whipple, Whitman, White, Wickliffe, Williams, of Va., Williams, of N. C., James Wilson, Henry Wilson, Wilson, of S. C., Wolfe, Wood, Woods, Mr. Speaker-166.

TRANSACTIONS OF LAST SESSION. Mr. RANDOLPH rose, and said, that a letter addressed by him to his constituents having become, on the last day of the last session of Congress, a subject of animadversion on this floor, he felt it to be due to himself, as well as to his constituents, to state to the House as succinctly as he might, the facts having reference to that occasion, leaving every thing like inference or argument to be deduced by others. I say then, continued Mr. R., that when I entered the room of the committee to whom was referred the memorial of Mr. Edwards, on the 28th of April-I go by the dates on the Journal-there was a naked proposition of an honorable member before that committee, which it is not necessary for me here to recite. To that proposition I moved an amendment, which it is equally unnecessary to recite, when I was informed that a similar proposition had been already rejected by NAYS. Messrs. Beecher, Buck, Burleigh, Campbell, the committee; and I then learned, for the first time, of Ohio, Crafts, Gazlay, Gist, F Johnson, Lincoln, Li- that the original proposition consisted of two substantial vermore, McCoy, McLean, of Ohio, Matson, Metcalfe, propositions, the latter of which had been discarded. I Patterson, of Ohio, Ross, Scott, Sloane, Sterling, Thomp-asked to read the proposition which had been so disson, of Ken., Tucker, of S. C., Vance, of Ohio, Vinton, Whittlesey, Wilson, of Ohio, Wright-26.

When the yeas and nays had been called and recorded, the SPEAKER rose, and observing that, having been

carded, and pointed out the difference between mine and that, which was obvious to every one who would. compare the two. That proposition of mine, however, not meeting the favor of the committee, I proceeded to

DEC. 23, 1824.]

Transactions of last Session.

H. of R.

that if all were submitted, the Secretary would have a fair opportunity to judge for himself in a way better than any others could judge for him. Then it was, and not till then, that the gentleman from Virginia offered the proposition to which his published letter seemed to allude.

suggest such considerations as occurred to my mind, why it should be adopted; and, during that discussion, the honorable member from Louisiana (Mr. LIVINGSTON) joined the committee. I stated to him the proposition pending before the committee. He readily coincided in opinion with me on the subject, stating his concurrence of opinion in these words that "he could not see what Mr. WEBSTER then rose, and said, that he had not other course could be resorted to." Then, and not till had occasion to refresh his recollection of the occurthen, was there a general acquiescence in this proposi-rences alluded to, since the last session, either by refertion-then, and not till then, were all the committee ence to the minutes of the committee, or conversation present-then, and not till then, was my proposition with other members of it. But that he did not think a adopted. It is unnecessary for me to say, that in nothing material circumstance. All he had now to say was, that that I have written or said, could I have had reference to the address of the honorable member to his constituents the ulterior decision of the committee; and, if any proof appeared to him (Mr. W.) and he presumed to others, were wanting to satisfy the most incredulous, it would to convey plainly the idea, that it had been with difficulbe found in the fact, that, on the 11th of the ensuing ty that a majority of the committee had been prevailed month, as appears from the minutes of the committee, a on by the honorable member to consent that the Secreproposition was made by me to lay the minutes of the tary of the Treasury should have an opportunity to ancommittee, including this very transaction, up to that swer the charges made against him in the memorial of day, before th House. I have no wish to go further into Ninian Edwards. If he, (Mr. W.) was now to underthis subject. It was incumbent on me-it was my stand that the honorable member did not mean to conbounden duty, to take the earliest opportunity to make vey such an idea, then he was willing to take the genthis statement to you and to the House; and I have tleman's statement to that effect, and ready, therefore, availed myself of the earliest moment to do so. to say, that what he had observed on a former occasion, Mr. LIVINGSTON, of Louisiana, said that the state- was said under a misapprehension of the honorable memment of facts which had been made by the gentleman ber's meaning. But if it had been intended to be refrom Virginia, was precisely correct, according to his presented in the honorable member's letter to his con(Mr. L's) recollection of what passed in the committee. stituents, that a majority of the committee were reluctThe misunderstanding on this subject, Mr. L. said, had ant, or unwilling, or needed to be prevailed upon, by arisen from a misconstruction of the letter which had any efforts of the honorable member, to allow the Sebeen written by the gentleman from Virginia on that oc-cretary an opportunity to answer the charges, then casion. That letter, he must be allowed to say, was so the statement which he (Mr. Webster) had formerly worded as to justify the construction, that a majority of made, was not only just, but necessary. He (Mr. the committee had, with much difficulty, been prevail- W.) thought then, and still thought, that if the honored upon to give the Secretary of the Treasury an op-able member intended a reflection on a majority of the portunity of being heard. This he understood to be now committee, it was incumbent on him to be explicit-to disavowed by the gentleman from Virginia, and the cir- state of whom that majority consisted-that every indicumstance, which he had stated, of his motion to lay the vidual gentleman might have an opportunity to answer minutes of the proceedings of the committee before the for himself. The only matter, therefore, as he (Mr. W.) House, convinced Mr. L. that such was not his intention, thought, which called for explanation, was this, viz: Did and he took pleasure in stating this impression. the honorable member intend to represent, that a majority of the committee were unwilling to give the Secretary the fullest opportunity to answer the charges against him?

Mr. RANDOLPH.-I have stated as clearly as I could, and I could recapitulate, were it necessary to trouble the House with it, the facts as they occurred.

Mr. OWEN then observed, that, as he was a member of the committee on the memorial of Ninian Edwards, it might be proper in him to take some notice of the remarks and statements which had been made by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. RANDOLPH.) He had had some conversation since he came to the city, with other members of the committee, and endeavored to bring the Mr. M'ARTHUR then rose, and said, that he should facts which occurred to his more distinct recollection; and like to understand from the gentleman from Virginia, he believed that the statement now given by the gentle- whether he wished to be understood as having stated man from Virginia, was substantially correct. When he that the committee consented, with reluctance, that the entered the committee room, a proposition, in relation charges in the memorial should be submitted to the Seto submitting the memorial of Mr. Edwards to the Se-cretary, that he might answer them. If such, said Mr. cretary of the Treasury might have been the subject of M'A. was his impression, it certainly was not mine. If conversation, but he now felt satisfied that the proposi- the gentleman says he did not mean to convey this idea, tion had been disposed of by the committee before the I am satisfied-but, if he says he did mean to express gentleman entered, and that his was a distinct proposi- such a meaning, and to apply it to a majority of the comtion. The conversation, he believed, had relation rath-mittee, I deny the proposition of the gentleman. er to the manner of submitting the charges in the memo- Mr. FLOYD, of Virginia, said, that it would, perhaps, rial to the notice of the Secretary of the Treasury, against be recollected, that, at the time the inquiry on this subwhom they were directed, than to the measure itself. Heject was introduced at the close of the last session, he thought, (as far as he could recollect,) the proposition of the gentleman from New York, (Mr. TAYLOR,) was to submit the entire memorial, and let the Secretary answer such parts of it as he might deem proper. But Mr. OWEN's own impression was, that, in the then present situation of that officer, it would be improper that all the language of that memorial should be submitted to his eye. It would submit various charges which were unimportant, but which he might think himself bound to answer; while he might esteem others of too little consequence to be answered, of which the committee might think differently; and he, therefore, had thought it would be best to specify the particular points which he was expected to answer. To this it was replied,

was not in the House-he was not present when the gentleman from Massachusetts made his statement to the House as to what had passed in the committee, nor did he know that he had made such a statement until after he had himself spoken. At that time he thought he observed some reluctance in that gentleman to answer; but he was persuaded then, as now, that there was some misapprehension. The statement now made by the gentleman from Virginia was a true one. He believed that many supposed the language of the letter he had written to refer to a vote of the committee-but his own understanding of it had always applied it to the general conversation which took place among the members of the committee while in the committee room. Suppose

« ForrigeFortsett »