Mr. POTTER. No; he will be.

Mr. COOPER. He will be when?

Mr. POTTER. Just as soon as he gets a chance for a little capital to improve his properties. Before this bill came into effect, you could not borrow money from the banks to improve your properties. You had to go to the Government, to the R. F. C.

Mr. COOPER. Who?

Mr. POTTER. Any coal producer.

Mr. COOPER. I am talking about the consumer.

Mr. POTTER. You will not give me a chance to explain, sir. I say that the coal consumer would eventually benefit.

Mr. COOPER. All right, when?

Mr. POTTER. As soon as the producer has sufficient time to rehabilitate his properties and pass those savings on to the consumer. Mr. COOPER. When, in your opinion, will that be?

Mr. POTTER. As soon as there is sufficient capital for that to be accomplished.

Mr. COOPER. Well, 1 year, 10 years, or how long?

Mr. POTTER. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. COOPER. Why do you say 2 years?

Mr. POTTER. Well, sir; we are in a period of large sales.

Mr. COOPER. The main reason is because you are asking for a 2-year extension of the act, is it not?

Mr. POTTER. I will change that and say 3 years, to take it out of that province.

Mr. COOPER. You would rather that it be made permanent, would you not?

Mr. POTTER. I have made no suggestion to that effect.

Mr. COOPER. I am asking you now, what would your preference be?

Mr. POTTER. Two years.

Mr. COOPER. Two years?

Mr. POTTER. That is right.

Mr. COOPER. Did you hear the testimony of the Secretary of the Interior?

Mr. POTTER. I did, sir.

Mr. COOPER. You heard him state that the price to consumers had increased, did you not?

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Right on that point: You say that as soon as the producer gets better organized, gets his credit better established, he can pass on to the consumer the benefit of being better financed, in the way of lower prices. That is the only benefit that he can get, through a lower price. Now, how can he pass on to the consumer any benefit through a lower price when the price is fixed? If his production costs are lower, he would not have anything to pass on in the way of benefit to the consumer, because the price is fixed to the consumer. How can he do that?

Mr. POTTER. Mr. Chairman, the act contains a provision that when there is a 2-cent change in the cost of production, the price may be changed to meet that change.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be, but what assurance have you that it would be? Just because a producer is able to borrow more moneyand understand, I am just trying to get your viewpoint on this.

The fact is, you are the most peculiar witness that has ever appeared before this committee, with all due respect. You say you came here just to reply to the testimony of other witnesses. In answer to Mr. Disney, you said you had no constructive suggestions to make, and came here as a rebuttal witness. Did you come down here just to sit around and then answer anything that would be said against this bill? What was your motive in coming here? You did not know what the testimony was going to be, did you? Mr. POTTER. I think I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Your purpose was to come down here and sharpshoot at any witness who was on the other side.

Mr. POTTER. I think not. There is a witness following me, Mr. Chairman. I do not know what his testimony is at all so I cannot sharpshoot at him.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you know what the testimony would be before you came down here?

Mr. POTTER. You publish a list of appearances, do you not, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. POTTER. If you know the coal industry, you can look at those names and know what they are going to testify to.

The CHAIRMAN. And you just came down here to reply to them, without knowing what they would testify to?

Mr. POTTER. Partially.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the first witness who has ever come before our committee that way.

Mr. POTTER. I think you are entitled to know the other side of the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course we are entitled to know the other side of the picture and we are entitled to know your side of the picture. But suppose somebody else comes down to rebut what you say and then somebody else comes down to rebut what he says. How long are we going to be here? When will we ever get through with rebutting? If every statement that is made is going to be rebutted, and then somebody else is going to reply to that rebuttal, we will be here indefinitely.

We would like to have some constructive suggestion on your own initiative and not because of what somebody else may say.

Mr. POTTER. I think it is a constructive suggestion any time you can support legislation that now stands and show why it is better the way it stands than that it should be changed according to some other person's idea.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me get this straight. I would like to know your position on this question. Do you oppose any amendments to the bill at this time?

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. For what reason?

Mr. POTTER. I know of no amendments that offer a solution to any of these problems.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't have any in mind that might be helpful? Almost every witness testifying on the bill has said that certain amendments would be helpful, but they were not ready with them. Do you have any in mind yet?

Mr. POTTER. I have never heard of any of those amendments which would be helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard the Secretary's testimony, did you not?
Mr. POTTER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. He said when amendments would be offered-
Mr. POTTER. He did not tell you what they were?

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Mr. POTTER. I do not know of any, to be honest with you.

The CHAIRMAN. You think it perfect as it is?

Mr. POTTER. I do not say it is perfect.

Mr. MCKEOUGH. Mr. Chairman, the witness has attempted to indicate two or three times that ultimately the consumer may benefit by a continuation of this act. So far I have been unable to hear any explanation of that conclusion, or any amplification of it by the witness. The floor has been taken away from him two or three times.

For my benefit at least, I would like the witness to indicate his reasoning for that conclusion. I am sure he has some or he would not make that very definite commitment. I would like to hear it.

Mr. POTTER. One particular outstanding factor is safety in the coal mines. Last year it has been estimated coal-mine accidents cost the consumers of bituminous coal $90,000,000. The common practice in coal mining is to be only as safe as you have to be; take chances; go along, keep your costs as low as possible. We would like to stop that. We would like to be able to rehabilitate our mines, in such manner that we could have safe operation.

Now, it will not cost us $90,000,000 to do that. But the consumer will certainly receive a lot of the benefit from that particular saving. Another item is that changing sources of supply in the coal market cost the consumer money. You cannot buy out of one field today and another one tomorrow and another one the next day, because your equipment is not designed to burn that type of coal. You should be able to secure an adequate supply at all times of a coal that is satisfactory to your use.

Many cities under their public bidding plans have gotten into terrible trouble because the lowest price coal was forced upon them through competitive bidding. It might have been the lowest price coal, but it was not the lowest cost coal to them.

With the consumer knowing what kind of coal he is purchasing, and that he has a dependable supply from this district, and that nobody else is coming in to offer him an inferior product at a lower price, thereby causing him to change his source of supply and increasing the cost of distributing that coal, he will be able ultimately to receive a lower price on that coal.

But in the marketing of this particular coal, if we have to have salesmen scattered all over the country, other companies have to do

the same thing, and if we try to reach out into markets where we actually do not belong it is simply because we are trying to get the greatest volume possible. If we know where our markets are, and where our coal is going to go, the consumer will, I believe, receive the benefit of that. Those are two reasons, sir.

Mr. McKEOUGH. May I inquire as to whether or not, in your recommendation that this act be continued for 2 additional years, you assume, of course, that these things you have just outlined would take an additional period of time to meet those factors that you have just outlined?

Mr. POTTER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. MCKEOUGH. So that when you make the definite commitment that, in your judgment, a continuation of this act will by reason of the factors that you point out, plus the one that you were interrupted in explaining, the ability of the producer, because of a record average earning to be able to go to the private money markets of the country and secure, by reason of his established earnings, a fair price at which he can borrow the additional capital that he needs to make the improvements in the operation of the mines-that that, too, will contribute to an ultimate saving to the consumer because you have the Government regulating the cost at the mine, so that all of the benefits that you now point out as very potential possibilities, benefits that will innure ultimately to the consumer, would no longer be present without this act; is that a fair conclusion?

Mr. POTTER. The Congressman is exactly right.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Mr. Chairman

Mr. TREADWAY. With Mr. Robertson's permission, may I ask one question? The witness has just made a remark that I think I should call attention to. Did I understand you to say that the operators of coal mines are only conforming to the safety provisions of the law in this perilous and hazardous business as much as they are compelled to? Is that the case?

Mr. POTTER. That is correct.

Mr. TREADWAY. I think that is a very inhuman statement to make. These men, or these corporations that own these mines-I assume that corporations do own these mines?

Mr. POTTER. That is correct.

Mr. TREADWAY. It does not seem possible to me that any man is going to fool with human life and experiment by getting as close to the edge of danger as he can. I think it is to the benefit of those mine owners to look after the safety of the men who work for them.

It seems to me that you are accusing the mine owners of being inhuman, when you say that they will not do more than they are forced to do for the protection of their employees. That is dead wrong. I take exception to it. I do not have a dollar's worth of coal interest of any kind and I do not know a single coal operator. But they are citizens of this country, most of them, probably. And they are, in addition to that, men of experience, who know their business. I assert that they are as anxious to have safety for their

employees as is the Coal Commission or anybody else. I do not think you mean to stand on that remark, sir.

Mr. POTTER. Mr. Congressman, this House passed a bill just a few days ago based on what I have said; and that is exactly where it came from. I am not accusing the coal operators of doing that. I am merely taking the statement of this House.

Mr. TREADWAY. You are taking what? Of course, if we know some way to save life at sea; if we know some way to save life in the air; if we know some way to save life anywhere, it is our duty to act accordingly. If these men know where their mines are weak in the protection of human life they are the first ones who want to correct that condition. I think I am safe in making that assertion.

Mr. POTTER. I think you are, too.

Mr. TREADWAY. Your remarks would not indicate it.

Mr. POTTER. If they did not indicate it, I hope you will permit me to apologize, and to say this: That no one deliberately tries to take a life in a coal mine. We are as safe as possible. I made the point that we could be safer.

Mr. TREADWAY. It is done voluntarily, is it not?

Mr. POTTER. Voluntarily.

Mr. TREADWAY. Well, that is a better statement than the one you originally made.

Mr. ROBERTSON. What is the current production of coal in tons? Mr. POTTER. Last year it was around 425,000,000.

Mr. ROBERTSON. It has been testified here that we would probably go to full capacity by December. What would be that production? Mr. POTTER. I imagine full capacity tonnage would be of the order of 675,000,000.

Mr. ROBERTSON. The 675,000,000 tons would be full capacity?
Mr. POTTER. If we operated 100 percent.

Mr. ROBERTSON. On the basis of tonnage, what percentage of the mines lack modern equipment?

Mr. POTTER. I think the record shows about 25 percent of the mines are mechanized today.

May I point out on this production figure that that is a theoretical maximum capacity? I do not think we can quite obtain it, but you wanted to know what the capacity was.

Mr. ROBERTSON. And only 25 percent of the mines are mechanized? Mr. POTTER. That is correct.

Mr. ROBERTSON. That is on a tonnage basis?

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Would any of this new capital you speak of in the next few years, on a stabilizing basis, go into mechanizing the other 75 percent?

Mr. POTTER. There is a limit to that, but quite a few of them would be.

Mr. ROBERTSON. How many employees are now employed?
Mr. POTTER. On the order of from 350,000 to 400,000.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Then the figures given in the newspapers, showing about 450,000, are not correct?