conservative estimate. The exact roster is available. We have a paid membership, so that we know exactly how many women are enrolled. That is about the last report I have.

At our last convention, in Portland, Oreg., in July, 1923, the delegate body unanimously indorsed this bill. I beg pardon; I will correct that. The delegate body unanimously indorsed the general principles of this bill, not the specific bill, but it did indorse the bill that preceded it.

I wish to submit, later, if I may, the statement of the exact facts. The resolution, which I have not at hand, indorsed the principle of a department of education, with a Secretary in the President's Cabinet, Federal aid, and the other general provisions of this bill. We pass resolutions in this manner: The legislative committee first discusses them and decides whether there is sufficient interest in the measure to bring it before the convention. Many of these, of course, have been discussed in the local clubs and State federations before coming to the convention. Then these measures are discussed in what is called a round-table convention. Delegates come to this round-table meeting and sometimes several other committees join with the legislative committee and, particularly if it is a matter such as this was, it brings the whole delegate body to the discussion. It is a very lively discussion on both sides of the question.

This matter, I may say, came up at other conventions before the legislative committee, but was not then brought forth. There was opposition, which has recently been withdrawn. Then the legislative committee makes a report to the resolutions committee, which is given to the convention and the delegate body votes on the resolution.

That is the method by which this was passed.

The interest we have in this bill, as business and professional women, is primarily to enlarge the opportunities for training women in the world of work and to raise the standards of that training. I think there is no need of discussion, as one of your members said today, about the desirability of education. Practically, as a people, we are committed to it, to a degree perhaps, that no nation was ever committed to public education at public expense. We all feel that the welfare of the country is protected as we promote sound education in many directions. We feel that certain opportunities are very inadequate and that certain standards are absent, and that national direction will stimulate those. A noted example is the tremendous growth in the opportunities for vocational education, through the work of the Federal Board for Vocational Education. That is a very good answer as to what Federal stimulation will do for local effort. This is not the time to discuss the modern trend in education, but that is a very important phase of the whole education problem. One of the gentlemen stated a moment ago that $20,000,000, or about three times as much, was proposed in this bill for physical education as for the removal of illiteracy, and asked the gentleman speaking if he thought it was three times as important. It might be a matter of personal opinion, but I should say, as a matter of national health, it is as far as that is concerned; that it is much more important that we have as citizens those who, first of all, know how to keep themselves fit physically. That is one of the most important things. I cite that only to make this thought, that better oppor

tunities and higher standards of training-I speak specifically now for our organization-for women to go into the business and professional world, are going to be greater now, and national stimulation, national aid, that comes from a department that coordinates the educational agencies already operated by our Government, and expands and stimulates them, we believe, will promote this thing.

The exact measures of this bill our resolution wisely did not comprehend, for this reason: Committing ourselves to the end and to the general means by which that end may be arrived at, we trust to our Representatives in Congress and in the Senate to find the right ways. It is entirely too intricate and complex to discuss even in a committee of the convention, much less on the convention floor, in the four or five days usually given to that meeting; so just how much money for each thing, or just what way it shall be done, or as to whether or not it is constitutional, we feel it legitimate to leave to the Members of the Congress. But they definitely stand by the principle of a department of education that is nationally fostering better educational opportunities and standards and Federal aid to that end. We wish to make clear, as business and professional women, with our feet on the ground and with our eyes ahead, as all good citizens will, that we mean to stand by that principle and, working with you, and listening to your judgment as we hope you will listen to ours or, rather, may I say, our hopes and ideals, we wish to stand by better educational opportunities, nationally fostered, in the best way you can give them to us.

Mr. BLACK. Are there many educators in your association?

Miss STEWART. There are a goodly number. I could not say offhand, but by no means would I say there are more than a fifth, if that number. They are lawyers, doctors, nurses, and business women. It is a general group of business and professional women. Mr. TUCKER. I understand that your organization indorses the principle of a department of education.

Miss STEWART. Yes.

Mr. TUCKER. And Federal aid?

Miss STEWART. Yes.

Mr. TUCKER. Has your organization had any meeting since the President delivered his last message to Congress?

Miss STEWART. When was that date?

Mr. TUCKER. In December.

Miss STEWART. Yes; we had a board meeting the last of February, a national board meeting—that is, the officers-but we had no general meeting.

Mr. TUCKER. Did you discuss reversing your indorsement of Federal aid?

Miss STEWART. We did not discuss any details. We had watched the progress of Federal aid, and the national board

Mr. TUCKER. I was just wondering whether you had changed your position about it, after the President had come out so strongly against Federal aid for schools?

Miss STEWART. No; we did not change our position in that matter. That was not brought up for discussion. I think we do appreciate the problem you have in regard to Federal aid, very definitely, and we realize the waste that goes into Federal aid very often; we realize the dangers of a long-removed administration of a central government

of local problems; we realize that quite fully. We have discussed that in great detail; we have had as wild round-table discussions in our group on some of those questions, probably, as you have, with slightly different ways of expression but in very much the same terms and we do realize and understand those things. But, in a democracy, we realize, too, that one of the prices of all of the people trying to do all of the things for all of us is waste.

Mr. TUCKER. I notice that you indicated that you thought the national direction of education would be a great benefit.

Miss STEWART. We do.

Mr. TUCKER. Are you aiming at a standard of education?

Miss STEWART. If you mean one method, no; not at all. By standards we mean a better chance for more people.

Mr. TUCKER. There is a great deal of discussion in the books about the nationalization of the schools and the federalization of the schools, and some of us had trouble about that. We do not know exactly what it means.

Miss STEWART. Neither do I. I have not thought about it in those terms. I dare say the people who use it know what it is. I do not know what is meant by nationalization of schools. For instance, all of the Federal bureaus, the Departments of Agriculture and Commerce, set up all sorts of splendid standards, and by their investigation make it possible for people interested in those different lines to do better things. That is what we mean by standardization. Mr. TUCKER. I see.

Miss WILLIAMS. I would like to file a statement here of Miss Adelia Prichard, president of the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs. This statement is:

We, the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs, declare our faith in the public schools of this country, and we affirm our unqualified support of Federal aid and Federal recognition for public education without Federal interference in any way with State or local control; and we believe that national leadership in education and the efficient administration of the educational activities of the Federal Government demand the creation of a department of education with a secretary in the President's Cabinet.

Here is a resolution of the same organization which we would like to file with the statement.

(The resolution referred to is as follows:)

RESOLUTION PASSED JULY, 1923, BY NATIONAL FEDERATION OF BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONAL WOMEN'S CLUBS

Whereas a sound education of all of its people is essential to a vital and enduring democracy; and

Whereas the United States has provided public schools for educating its citizens; and

Whereas we have declared that a thorough elementary and high school education is both desirable and essential for a successful career in business: Therefore be it

Resolved, That we, the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs, declare our faith in the public schools of this country, and that we affirm our unqualified support of Federal aid and Federal recognition for public education without Federal interference in any way with State or local control; be it further

Resolved, That we believe that national leadership in education and the efficient administration of the educational activities of the Federal Government demand the creation of a department of education, with a secretary in the Cabinet of the President.

Miss WILLIAMS. The next speaker represents the American Association of University Women, leaders in American life and education, who indorse the principles of this bill, Mrs. Francis Fenton Bernard.

STATEMENT OF MRS. FRANCIS FENTON BERNARD, EDUCATIONAL SECRETARY THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY WOMEN.

Mrs. BERNARD. The American Association of University Women is a body of 19,000 college women, with a very wide geographic distribution, We are organized in 270 branches, located all over the United States, the South, East and West, and therefore we have no special local prejudice.

In the second place the women of this organization represent every kind of interest and profession. We are not teachers, alone, but college women, mothers and teachers, doctors, lawyers, professional women, and women engaged in every kind of public work. We have no special pedagogic interest exclusively in this.

We passed at our convention in July, 1923, the resolution that we indorse a Federal department of education, with Federal aid. This is the second indorsement we have made in this connection. A year before we indorsed the principle of a Federal department of education and upon further consideration, and upon having the provisions of this bill presented to us very clearly and in detail, the association reversed its former action and indorsed the principle of a Federal department of education, with Federal aid.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Miss WILLIAMS. The next speaker will be Mrs. Ellis A. Yost, legislative representative of the National Woman's Christian Temperance Union.

STATEMENT OF MRS. ELLIS A. YOST, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE NATIONAL WOMAN'S CHRISTIAN TEMPERANCE UNION

Mrs. YosT. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I thank you for this opportunity to state that the National Woman's Christian Temperance Union has indorsed the proposed legislation to create a department of education.

Through our department of legislation in conference with experts with regard to the subject which we are studying, careful study is given to the measures before any recommendation is made. Recommendations from this department go to our national officers. From the national officers, there is approval of the proposed legislation, it goes to our executive board. which consists of 48 presidents of the State organization. From this board it goes to the national convention, which is made up of 1,000 delegates. Ordinarily we do not boast of our numbers or of our membership, but if there are questions I would be glad to answer them, in regard to the membership or to the extent of the organization.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Miss WILLIAMS. I should like to file at this time a statement by Miss Anna A. Gordon, president of the National Woman's Christian Temperance Union.

The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.

(The paper referred to is as follows:)

No Government is stronger than its composite citizenry. A citizenry, physically, intelligently, and morally sound is essential to the life and prosperity of the Nation. Weakness or disorder in any State subtracts from the total national health and security. To neglect the proper training of any considerable portion of our country is to endanger the Nation as a whole. Since education promotes national welfare, we believe it should have the recognition which a secretary in the Cabinet would give. The Woman's Christian Temperance Union has resolved to give its support to the Federal education bill which provides for a department of education.

A department of education would adequately provide for nation-wide research and investigation. Reliable statistical and experimental evidence should be the guide for effective school administration. An attempt at such investigation by the 48 States would lead to duplication and waste. The national council, provided for in the education bill, would furnish an official clearing house for the ideals and plans developed by the various States. ANNA A. GORDON,

President National Woman's Christian Temperance Union. Miss WILLIAMS. We have here a friend of education, and a friend of the education bill, who gave to me a very delightful surprise this morning. When the department of superintendence met at Chicago the latter part of February, hundreds of the members gathered together at a luncheon, the like of which was never held before, and probably never will be held again, to honor this dean of American education. This man has made 60 trips back and forth across the American continent, knows more people in education, and knows them more intimately than does any other man or woman living in America to-day. I present Dr. A. E. Winship, editor, and best loved man in the field of education in America to-day.

STATEMENT OF DR. A. E. WINSHIP, EDITOR JOURNAL OF EDUCATION

Doctor WINSHIP. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I did not come here to attend this hearing. I dropped in to see my Congressman, the Congressman of my district, and I have no disposition to go into the merits of the bill in any way, shape, or fashion. I have not come for that; but I do want to say to you people with all seriousness, in the first place, to protest against putting into the record the bouquet that was just thrown me; that was not part of the performance at all. It is true that I have had an opportunity to know American education as nobody else has ever had the opportunity of knowing it. I never have been a propagandist of anything in my life, but I do try to study situations, and I would like to say three or four things on this bill. In the first place, the American people are for the public schools. There is not any question about that at all. There is no one thing in America that Americans are so united on as they are on the public schools. We may differ in plans, but for the public schools we are settled, and just now everybody is watching the people who are proposing this bill.

Now, this bill, primarily, is not the most important thing, but things are becoming important suddenly without anybody thinking that they will become important, like the sinking of the Maine. Every campaign is drawn on some one's suggestion that gets into the air, one slogan, and I am watching very much when President Butler,