Bureau of Investigation might continue to develop along the lines of the notorious Nazi secret police. In its issue of January 11, Collier's said:

The F. B. I. is superb. But human beings are ambitious; and the F. B. I., unchecked and unbridled, could grow to be an American gestapo.

The way to create gestapos is to give them great powers for evil, such as wire tapping. One way to check ambitions and to safeguard American liberties is to refrain from granting to the secret police powers which as all witnesses opposing the wire-tapping bills have testified-are so easily susceptible to gross abuse. That such checks are vitally necessary in the face of a growing attitude of contempt for constitutional safeguards is illustrated by a newspaper story in the Jersey City Journal of February 7, 1941, page 1, columns 1 and 2. This newspaper reported a speech made by Edward B. Conroy, head of the Newark division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. During the course of this speech there was indicated that Bureau's lack of respect for the civil rights of suspects. I quote:

Conroy said the Bureau is not "namby-pamby" and "pulling punches" by being deeply concerned over the civil rights of persons suspected. Conroy read a part of a letter sent by J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Bureau, in backing his statement. An excerpt of the letter, written by Hoover to a civil liberties protective organization, stating persons or organizations engaged in fomenting trouble in this country have no constitutional rights.

Those who have apparently developed this attitude toward the Constitution of the United States, as indicated by this newspaper account, will not hesitate to view the laws of Congress with the same attitude should Congress yield to pressure from a Federal detective agency and open the door to wire tapping in any manner, shape, or form.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. TOLAN. Thank you very much, and the committee will adjourn until 2 o'clock this afternoon, to meet in the committee room, room 346 on the third floor.

(Thereupon, at 11:50 a. m., the subcommittee adjourned until 2 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., pursuant to the taking of recess, Hon. John H. Tolan (acting chairman) presiding.

REMARKS OF S. D. KAPELSOHN

Mr. TOLAN. The committee will please come to order. The members of the subcommittee are on the floor of the House at this time. We expect them to be here at any time, but do you care to proceed now?

Mr. KAPELSOHN. I am ready to proceed insofar as my own time and material are concerned but while I know the session this morning continued with only one member of the committee present I personally question the propriety of the procedure. What I have to say has been prepared with considerable thought and time and effort and was prepared not for the purpose of reading words into the record but with the earnest hope that I might be able to in some small degree by what I have to say persuade the committee members along the direction of the views which I present. I do not think it would be effective, therefore, for me to speak with the committee members absent.

Mr. TOLAN. I will say this to you. At different times the entire committee cannot be present at these hearings. At times they have to be at other committee hearings. At times they have to be down on the floor of the House or at some department of the Government. But this whole record will be printed and the whole record will be considered when we make up our minds as to the particular bill that we will recommend. I am just saying to you now if you care to proceed or wait until a little bit later, that is satisfactory to me.

Mr. KAPELSOHN. If a majority of the committee will be present a little bit later I prefer to wait until that time.

Mr. TOLAN. All right.

Does anybody else want to be heard at this time?

REMARKS OF MORRIS WATSON, CHAIRMAN OF PROGRESSIVE COMMITTEE TO REBUILD THE AMERICAN LABOR PARTY

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, my sentiments are exactly as Mr. Kapelsohn has expressed. I am very anxious to be heard; however, I do not think it is satisfactory for a matter of this magnitude to be merely read into the record with the hope that the members of the committee will read the record. I think that the members of the committee need to hear the testimony and hear it first hand. As Mr. Kapelsohn does, I hope in my small way to sway the members of the committee by personal appearance. I mean if it is just a matter of reading into the record we could send a statement in for the record and hope and expect it would be thoroughly read and digested. I think not only should the statement be made to the members of the committee but there should be an opportunity for the members of the committee to question the witnesses and there should be a full discussion of this matter. I think it is too important a matter to the American people to be handled in this way..

Mr. TOLAN. We feel there is not anything that comes before this committee that is not very important, so far as that is concerned. But the situation is this, that the House is in session. The full committee was not here this morning. As I said before, we have hundreds of bills here, and we have to do the very best we can. That is all there is to it, don't you see? I am just leaving to you if you want to proceed you can do so; or you can take your chances later.

Mr. WATSON. Well, because of the importance of the matter I think I will take my chances when there are some members of the committee. I think the testimony that was put before you this morning may well sway you, but we have other people on the committee to be convinced on this, and I will respect fully step aside until the time comes.

REMARKS OF MR. LEBOVICI

Mr. LEBOVICI. My name is Lebovici. May I say this, sir: I am appearing for the Washington Committee for Democratic Action. I wonder, sir, as to the matter that you have suggested, and the thought occurs to me have you considered this: Whether or not you should want, on a matter of this importance, to undertake the responsibility of holding the hearing alone? I do not want to appear presumptuous, but, as you undoubtedly are aware, some criticism has already been directed to the fact that this measure comes before the Judiciary

Committee. Now, there is no doubt that the Judiciary Committee is perhaps just as competent to consider the matter as, say, the Interstate Commerce Committee. But, nevertheless, under normal circumstances one would have expected this bill to have come there, so that while that suspicion is present, I wonder if you should want to continue the hearings under those circumstances. I have gone to a great deal of trouble to be here. But under the circumstances I would prefer that we arrange an adjourned date, and I should be glad to go through the proceedings on the date given.

Mr. TOLAN. Let me make the position of the Chair clear to you. I think you appreciate the fact of what we are up against.

Mr. LEBOVICI. Yes.

Mr. TOLAN. We would like to be on the House floor this afternoon. We would like to be at another committee hearing. I would like to be at my office to answer some of my mail. But in the stress of legislation we cannot be every place. Now, you have cited an example of one being present here. This is just a subcommittee to get the record for the full committee. Every word you have put into the record will go before the full committee. So the final decision is for the full committee. We simply serve as a clearing house for the full committee. Mr. LEBOVICI. I appreciate the difficulty of your position, sir.

Mr. TOLAN. Wait a moment. Did you ever go to the Senate of the United States when a man was being tried on an impeachment and find two or three Senators there? That record finally went to the full Senate. We simply cannot help that. In other words, I am not going to sit here today and criticize the other members of the committee for not being here. They are very much interested-two or three of them-in the reapportionment bill this afternoon. We are going to close these hearings Wednesday, if every person is before this committee. We have 200 bills before the subcommittee alone. What are we going to do? Do you want to get your material into the record when you can get it in or do you not?

Mr. LEBOVICI. Sir, I understand the difficulty of your position. I know it arises by reason of pressing business. On the other hand, we are dealing with a matter which you must certainly realize is dealing with fundamental juridical rights as we have understood them, and changing those rights as we have understood them ever since they were handed down from the Anglo-Saxons; and another consideration that is implicit in the method in which we have testimony before these hearings is that the value of the testimony given will be tested by cross-examination and will be weighed accordingly. Now, we, in presenting this evidence, want the evidence to be subject to that test in order that it will have the validity that it deserves. Speaking only for myself, of course, that is my feeling in the matter.

Mr. TOLAN. Let me tell you something about this committee. So far this is the sixth day of hearings. We have had just exactly 40 minutes for the proponents of the bill, and the rest of the time has been given to the opposition, which is all right with me. I am not expressing any views one way or the other. So that is the situation of record today. I have been all over the United States with congressional committees. I know many times Members cannot be present. But the record is printed. We are just trying to do the very best we can, and I am trying to extend to you all the best courtesy I can. So far as I am

personnally concerned, if you want to take your chances, that is all right.

Mr. LEBOVICI. Is it my understanding there will be a meeting of the full committee on Wednesday?

Mr. TOLAN. No. Of the full subcommittee or as many of them as are present.

Mr. LEBOVICI. My time has, of course, been reserved; that is, the time has, I understand, been reserved for my appearance, although not specifically at any particular time. If I can make arrangements and have the time specifically reserved on Wednesday, I would appreciate it under the circumstances.

Mr. TOLAN. I do not like to reserve the time specifically for anybody. I am going to say we are going to conclude the hearings on Wednesday and we will do the very best we can to give you an opportunity to be heard. That is my whole idea.

Mr. LEBOVICI. I will appreciate it, if you please, sir.

REMARKS OF MISS MARTHE-ANN CHAPMAN

Miss CHAPMAN. Mr. Chairman, this morning, unfortunately, I finished my statement at the stroke of the bell, and there was not an opportunity for any questions. I wanted to present myself here this afternoon; I had hoped for your full subcommittee, or at least a major part of it, for questioning.

Mr. TOLAN. Í may say to you, about the cross-examination, you will find it is very seldom much cross-examination will be had when the thoughts you have expressed are in the record in substantial form, don't you see, many times over. I guess it is in there a dozen times-quotations from different people and all that-although you did have some newspaper quotations there which we did not have before.

Miss CHAPMAN. Unfortunately, I regret it, but really, with so important a bill as this, I am afraid I must concur with the former speakers that we could not have a little fuller hearing. It seems to me terribly important. Naturally I came here because I feel that way about it.

Mr. TOLAN. I am simply doing the best I can.
Miss CHAPMAN. I know you are.

REMARKS OF T. EDWIN QUISENBERRY, EVANSTON, ILL.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. May I just ask, as a prospective witness, why there is a necessity of terminating these hearings Wednesday?

Mr. TOLAN. The reason is simply that the chairman asked the subcommittee to hold hearings and to report to the full committee. We have extended it a little bit too far already as it is. I do that because that is my nature to give everybody a full hearing, don't you see? But, again, as I repeat, there is not a thing said here that is not part of the record and will be hashed and rehashed by the full committee-that is, everything you state and everything you hand in in the hearing.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. May I just, with due deference to the viewpoint that you have suggested, point out a consideration that appeals to me as a businessman? I have observed in recent years there

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has been a great deal of criticism in Washington, and, I think, justifiable, that one of the great troubles of private business was it was controlled and managed in many instances by directors who did not direct. There have been instances called to the attention of the public where directors have failed over long periods of time to be present at meetings. I do not want you to understand what I am about to say as criticism directed at this subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee. I am just as fully aware of the difficulties and conflicts of this morning as to being at hearings or being in the House at the same time. I recognize and appreciate that is primarily the responsibility and necessity for our Representatives to be on the floor of their respective Houses when Congress is in session and meeting in the House. It seems to me at the same time that a subcommittee, and I do not know what your procedure is, whether a majority of a subcommittee constitutes a quorum or whether you are governed by rules or whether you are merely governed by informal arrangements which you make from time to time, to be agreed to by the witnesses and people who desire to be heard; however, that may be in its detail, on its technical side it does seem to me that when in the Congress of the United States a committee is entrusted with particular and special functions of the Judiciary Committee, of course, it must call all these various bills that come before it before they go up for action by the House. But realizing the great number of bills coming before that committee, I take it that explains the reason that in turn its hearings are before a subcommittee of a committee. I think I am correctly stating the fact in the matter. On the other hand, on that subcommittee there are, if my inquiry is correct, which I made when I first made some inquiry about this, that the men on the subcommittee, one of whom has been, I understand, from the office of the House Judiciary Committee, ill-a perfectly justifiable reason for not being present-I did not expect the members of this committee to assemble this afternoon. But it seems to me that the cogency and validity of what you just said about your own difficulty, and I sympathize with you in your position, I appreciate you yourself being here and conducting this hearing, would suggest that these hearings should not be closed and that they should be continued and should be set for a convenient time consistent with other obligations which the members of this subcommittee may find agreeable.

Mr. TOLAN. How are you going to find that time?

Mr. QUISENBERRY. That, I assume, is one of the ordinary procedures which all committees are confronted with. I am merely saying to you a committee of the board in a corporation would find a convenient time among themselves and so set it. I am wondering if perhaps the whole difficulty might not be solved, and your present difficulty, which is, I am sure, appreciated by everybody here, including myself, might not be overcome if you were to have first a conference with these other absent members of your subcommittee to ascertain these convenient dates at some time in the future, and then give us the opoprtunity of appearing before the committee. Because if I was appearing before the board of a corporation which was entrusted with a duty of investigating a matter and reporting to the full board, I know as a corporate director myself,