143 I should prefer to talk to at least to a quorum and not talk, if you please, where the whole advantage of talking is that you do have the ability to present your views to the committee as a whole or a majority of the committee.

Mr. TOLAN. What is your name?

Mr. QUISENBERRY. Quisenberry of Chicago.

Mr. TOLAN. Mr. Quisenberry, of course, this is the biggest corporation in the United States.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. Precisely so.

Mr. TOLAN. But the duties are so manifold there is no resolution for an investigation of any kind which does not provide that any single member of this subcommittee can hear the testimony and make it a part of the record. That indicates the difficulty, don't you see? Now, as I say again, I am perfectly willing to have you folks go ahead here and to put your statements in the record. There have been times here that we have had five members of the subcommittee present. The reason for holding it today is simply this: On Tuesdays and Thursdays the full committee meets, so we are limited to Monday and Wednesday. here this afternoon just doing my very level best to help the people I am going to sit who are here and have to get away, to be heard.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I am sure you do not misunderstand anything I said. This is not the slightest reflection or criticism of you, sir, and is not so intended, but merely as a practical approach. I would like to just add these words. I am appearing before this committee at my own request. And I discussed it with Congressman Barnes of my own State at the end of last week. Certainly in my talk with him he gave me the impression, which I am sure he had, that the hearings or the hearings before the subcommittee, and I felt very strongly after I talked to him that it was not outside his own opinion that perhaps the contribution that might come from the voice of business to this committee might be useful and valuable. I was disposed to feel from his conversation with me that he himself wished to appear to hear it. I understand perfectly why he is not here. I do not want in his absence to have this remark made. But I am merely saying it in that particular circumstance, in view of the circumstances under which I asked the privilege of appearing, I should prefer to wait until Congressman Barnes can be here.

Mr. TOLAN. All right.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I also wanted to raise the voice I see no necessity, and I wish I might hear some indication, if the chairman can tell me, why, with Congress not coming to a close, there is any rush about it. Mr. TOLAN. The only rush about it is, you will find out before this record is closed both sides will be pretty well represented.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. May I ask about the witnesses who have appeared before this committee representing business?

Mr. TOLAN. What is that?

Mr. QUISENBERRY. May I ask who, previous to my appearance here today, has come to you as businessmen?

Mr. TOLAN. I think, so far, they have been Mr. Hobbs, Mr. Walter, Mr. Holtzoff.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. Those are the authors of the bill.

Mr. TOLAN. Wait a minute. Do not anticipate my statement. The rest of them, I think, so far, were representatives of labor unions, except this lady, this morning. I think that is a correct statement.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I did not mean to interrupt you. But still, if you will pardon me, because of my lack of familiarity with the names, I am not quite clear; the gentlemen you first named, I believe, are the Congressmen who have initiated the legislation in question; is that right?

Mr. TOLAN. Yes.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. And the third man, whose name you gave?
Mr. TOLAN. Mr. Holtzoff, representing the Attorney General.
Mr. QUISENBERRY. Well, he does not represent business.

Mr. TOLAN. No.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. Oh, I see.

Mr. TOLAN. I was eliminating business by saying there were no businessmen.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I was not clear. I thought you were representing three people who from your viewpoint were representing business.

Mr. TOLAN. Mr. Barnes, I think had to go downtown to some departmental office and will try to get here just as soon as he can. I expected him to come, too. Would you rather wait? Mr. QUISENBERRY. Yes. Mr. TOLAN. You want to gressman to hear. All right. Is there anyone else?

wait until Wednesday for your Con

Mr. WATSON. May I say I do think that the procedure Mr. TOLAN. I am here to ask you to go ahead if you want to proceed at this time, and not to reprimand the committee.

Mr. WATSON. I have no desire to reprimand the committee but simply want to make the plea that I cannot get back Wednesday. I can get back here next week. I heard Congressman Hobbs say this morning he wanted a dead line on this, and that he did not want to shut anybody off. I think he suggested something like I have said. I do not think there ought to be a dead line on a matter of this importance. For instance, have any experts been heard? Has the telephone company been heard? I myself have telegraphed the telephone company telling them that if any of these wire tapping bills goes through the telephone will become an instrument of oppression. I will not pay for an instrument of oppression in my home and will, therefore, discontinue the use of the telephone. I know a number of people who have done the same thing. It seems to me experts ought to be heard on this matter.

Mr. TOLAN. Of course, we are not in a position to go out and scour the country to ask people to come here any more than you folks who have come here. We did not send for you. You presented yourselves. If we did we would never conclude the hearings.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, only by the merest chance do we hear that this legislation is to be heard. I think the American people should have an opportunity to express their ideas on it and tell the Congress what their ideas are.

Mr. TOLAN. I tell you what you do. Two years from now you run for Congress and come back and put those ideas into effect. Mr. WATSON. I will. I ran the last time and was defeated. I will keep on running until I win. Mr. Connolly, who testified before you this morning, ran for Congress from the Seventeenth

Congressional District, and I hope that he is elected, and I think that he will attend committee meetings if he is.

Mr. TOLAN. I will say to you, too, that so far as the concluding of the hearings is concerned, that is a matter that will be put to the subcommittee here. It will not be myself making that decision alone.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I understand that.

Mr. TOLAN. It will be a majority of the subcommittee. After all, I am only one of the members.

Mr. QUISENBERRY. I would just like to repeat what I said before. In the absence of any emergency it seems to me, from anything that has been said, that this thing must be concluded in any way. It would be far more fortunate

Mr. HOLTZOFF. May I venture a suggestion?
Mr. TOLAN. Yes.

REMARKS OF ALEXANDER HOLTZOFF

Mr. HOLTZOFF. Perhaps there is a little misunderstanding in this matter. I would like to say this legislation is very desirable and necessary in the interests of national defense and any legislation that pertains to national defense may be regarded as legislation where time is an important element. I would like to bring to your attention this fact, Mr. Chairman: While all these witnesses have displayed a great deal of public spirit in coming here there has been a great deal of duplication. That is natural. And the subject, really, the value of material, has been pretty well exhausted and much of it has been repeated several times. Apparently some of these ladies and gentlemen are not used to Washington and do not realize that every Member of Congress has manifold duties to perform. Certainly they should do you the courtesy of proceeding irrespective of whether you sit alone or whether some of your colleagues are present. And perhaps if they do not want to go to the trouble of making their statements before you they might submit them in writing because otherwise the effect (I do not say they are intending to do this) but the effect surely is to postpone the final decision on the part of this committee from week to week. It seems to me that since you are here, and these witnesses here, either ought to proceed or submit written statements.

Mr. TOLAN. Mr. Holtzoff, I do think it is an important piece of legislation.

Mr. HOLTZOFF. It is.

Mr. TOLAN. I agree. So what I want to say now, if you do not want to go on this afternoon, it is perfectly all right with me. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock Wednesday. And as to whether there is going to be any further hearing or attempt to conclude that will be up to the subcommittee.

Now, is there anyone here who wants to go on this afternoon?

Mr. KAPELSOHN. Mr. Chairman, I want to say this, myself, I am extremely pleased that the chairmanship of this subcommittee is in the hands of someone who has shown patience and tolerance which you have shown. I think it is a most important piece of legislation. You see, our view is that the defeat of this legislation is of inestimable importance to national defense, and that is exactly the point I want

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to make and that is exactly what I want to prove. And I do not think it is quite right for the proponents of the measure, who have offered nothing in support of their position, to question my willingness to take the time and trouble to present my views here. I came down from Newark last Wednesday. I have come today. I will come down from Newark Wednesday and another dozen times if necessary. I have something to say which I would like the subcommittee to hear. You yourself know if you are making your pleas before a jury you want to do it in person and not to submit a brief.

Mr. HOLTZOFF. We know the members of the committee will read the record.

Mr. KAPELSOHN. Excuse me, Mr. Holtzoff.

And we do not want to submit a brief for them to retire into the jury room. I do not want the subcommittee to retire to the committee room with my brief. I want them to hear my brief. I want them to hear what I have to say and the way I say it. I want to be here to explain any questions they want to ask me about what I mean by what I say. In the interest of the national defense I say these hearings must be kept open until the last word has been stated. That last word must be set before the entire subcommittee, or at least a majority of the subcommittee, or it will not be properly said in accordance with the procedure which governs these subcommittees.

REMARKS OF MRS. ERNEST W. HOWARD

Mrs. HOWARD. In order that my presence in the room today while all this heckling of the chairman and the committee might not be taken as an indication that I concur, as an affiliate of the largest women's organization in the country I should like to say that I do feel that this bill is for national defense and we do know, those of us who are used to committees and appear before them and we do know the members are not always able to be here; we do know where we might find them if we want to impress them; we do know it is one of the finest ways in the world to prevent legislation in one way or the other is to postpone it. I want you to take especial notice of that and please keep it in mind. It is one of the finest medicines common to postpone good legislation.

REMARKS OF DONAL M. SULLIVAN

Mr. TOLAN. Do you want to be heard?

Mr. SULLIVAN. Two sentences. The first sentence is that with due appreciation of the Chair and his fairness and with due appreciation of the legislative difficulties which occasion the absence of other members of the subcommittee I feel in general, though not entirely in specific agreement with those who have expressed their objections.

Secondly, I assume there are no questions which are going to be asked of me on the basis of my offer to be present this afternoon so I can be excused?

Mr. TOLAN. Yes. Thank you very much.

You understand the situation. If anyone here wants to be heard this afternoon for the purposes of the record the Chair is ready to go ahead. If not, we will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock Wednesday morning.

(Whereupon the hearing was adjourned to 10 a. m. Wednesday, February 19, 1941.)

WIRE TAPPING

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1941

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE No. 1 OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,

Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 2 p. m., Hon. John H. Tolan presiding. Mr. TOLAN. The committee will come to order, please. Who is our first witness this afternoon? Will you give your name and address and in what capacity you appear?

STATEMENT OF JOHN A. SAVAGE, WASHINGTON, D. C., DIRECTOR OF
THE AMERICAN EQUITY ASSOCIATION

Mr. SAVAGE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, my name is John A. Savage. I live at 1303 Fairmont Street NW. I am a director of the American Equity Association, a private legal-aid concern.

Mr. TOLAN. We will be pleased to hear something about equity. Mr. SAVAGE. There is none. There is nothing left but the name. On account of the shortage of equity we have been unable to carry on. Mr. TOLAN. Have you a written statement, Mr. Savage?

Mr. SAVAGE. Most of my statement will be a letter to the Attorney General. I would like to read that, however.

Mr. TOLAN. A letter to the Attorney General?

Mr. SAVAGE. Yes. I would like to read that.

Mr. TOLAN. Are there any other remarks that you will make extemporaneously?

Mr. SAVAGE. Yes. I will not take very long. I would say that my principal objection to this bill is that it attempts to make legal by act of Congress what is illegal, unconstitutional evidence. This manner of obtaining evidence constitutes, to my mind, an unreasonable and unwarranted search and seizure, and I think that if the bill were to become law the courts would simply have to set aside anything which is done under it, by reason of the fact that the evidence would be illegally seized.

Mr. BARNES. Even though this bill were passed?

Mr. SAVAGE. Even if the bill were passed."

Mr. BARNES. Why?

Mr. SAVAGE. Because it is beyond the power of Congress to override the Constitution. The Constitution says that unreasonable searches and seizures are prohibited.

Mr. BARNES. The Supreme Court has already passed upon that question some-time back, have they not?

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