Parliamentary Debates During the FIRST SESSION of the ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT in the Third Year of the Reign of His Majesty No LIBE BRAR Second Volume of the Session, HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, March 1, 1833. MINUTES.] Petitions presented. By Lord DACRE, from Newport (Monmouth) and Scone, against Slavery. By Lord KING, from Kildaldy, against Coercive Measures for Ireland; and from the same Place, against Tithes.-By Lord KENYON, from Shipley and Windhill; and by the Earl of RODEN, from Stanningley,-for Limiting the Hours of Labour for Children in Factories.-By the Earl of CADO GAN, from St. Luke's, Chelsea; by the Marquess of minster; by the Bishop of LICHFIELD and COVENTRY, from Stafford, and nine other Places; by Lord SUFFIELD, from Wells-on-the-Sea; by Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE, CHOLMONDELEY, from a Dissenting Congregation, West from Devonport, Stoke, and Plymouth; and by Lord BEXLEY, from Oxford,-for the Better Observance of the Sabbath. 12222. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, March 1, 1833. MINUTES.] Papers ordered. On the Motion of Mr. GROTE the Quantities of Coal and Culm Imported into London tinguishing all Municipal or Private Dues from Public since 1825; specifying the Amount of Duty paid, and dis Taxes. On the Motion of Colonel DAVIES, Amount of Superannuation Allowances for 1832.-On the Motion of Mr. GILLON, Account of the Crown Lands in Scotland.- in the hands of the County Treasurers (Ireland) for the last three years.On the Motion of Mr. WILKS, Number in London and Westminster, for 1831: also an Abstract of the Laws now in force in Jamaica relative to Churches, of Cases heard and determined in the Court of Requests Chapels, and Missionaries. Petitions presented. By Mr. DYKES, from Harrington,-for the Better Observance of the Sabbath, and for Vote by Ballot; and from Broughton, Harrington, and other Places, --for the Abolition of Slavery.-By Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH, from Launceston; by Lord EBRINGTON, from LORD, from Collumpton, to facilitate the Recovery of TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.] Mr. Mr. Aglionby expressed a hope and a confidence, that the present Ministers, to whom the country already owed so much, would pay an early attention to the subject brought before the notice of the House by the petition; and take away all the taxes which pressed so heavily upon the circulation of knowledge. He was anxious that it should be effected, and that as speedily as possible, because he was convinced that the increase of knowledge prevented the increase of crime. He was the more confirmed in this opinion by the charge, reported in a Carlisle paper, said to have been delivered by a learned Judge on the Northern Circuit, to the Grand Jury. He would, if the House would tolerate him for a moment, read an extract from that charge, which he held in Hatherleigh, to the same effect; and by the same NOBLE his hand. The learned Judge, after adVOL. XVI. {Series} Third В verting to the very light calendar of crime | digious as, I say, my reverence for the Bench which the town presented, added, "I is, increased, too, as I say it is, by such should be extremely glad to ascertain doctrines, yet I cannot agree to what the to what cause this is owing. Your popu- learned Judge says about education. The lation is not far short of your southern same learned Judge subsequently deneighbours; how is it, then, that crime is livered some very extraordinary opinion not so prevalent? I know that your on the law of libel in my own case.. I am police are active and indefatigable, and I not the person who will quarrel with him know that your Magistrates are equally now for that, or impeach his legal acumen so, in the discharge of their duties. But and knowledge. I am not, of course, a I am more inclined to think, for my own profound lawyer; and of law I must part, that it is owing to the greater spread necessarily know less than he knows. I of knowledge among the poorer classes of wish I knew nothing. But on matters of the population.' political economy, or of education, and the effects of knowledge upon crime, I am quite as competent to form and express an opinion as he is. But it is not a question of my opinion against his; it is a question of fact. I only repeat now, what every Gentleman present knows as well as I can tell him, that though, for the last thirty years, bibles, tracts, pamphlets, newspapers, and penny publications have covered the entire country, as a field is covered by a shower of snow, still the increase of crime has not been in the slightest degree prevented. On the contrary, look at the criminal records of the country, and see if the increase of crime has not gone on increasing with the increase of knowledge, and the circulation of cheap publications. I do not mean for a moment, to impute the one to the other; or to say that the increase of crime is caused by the increase of knowledge; but still, I think, it is only fair to show, that the increase of one does not prevent the increase of the other; and that any argument founded on that basis must be futile. I am for the repeal of that tax, because I am for the repeal of all taxes, and because I wish freedom for every man to think, and write, and speak as he pleases, subject, of course, to the laws on the subject. Mr. Cobbett: I am decidedly for the repeal of this tax, because I am for a repeal of all taxes. But as to its being a tax upon knowledge, and as to knowledge effecting all that the hon. Member who has just spoken has stated, I beg leave to doubt that very much. With regard to the utility of what is called education in preventing the increase of crime, there is no Gentleman present who will deny, that, for the last thirty years, the circulation of books, pamphlets, bibles, newspapers, &c., has increased ten-foldand, by the bye, 'tis very strange, too, that with a liberal Government-a Government apparently anxious to promote education among all classes too-it is very strange, I say, that Acts of Parliament should exist prohibiting, under the severest penalties, the circulation of knowledge, and the spread of that education which they seemed to have so much at heart. 'Tis very strange, I repeat, that under a liberal Government, as they style themselves, above 200 persons should be in prison at this moment for simply assisting in the circulation of that knowledge. But as to education preventing the increase of crime, as the learned Judge expresses in his opinion, prodigious as is the reverence Lord Althorp said, that he had just I must pay to the opinion of their Lord- heard an observation from the hon. memships-prodigious, indeed, is the reverence ber for Oldham, which he had frequently I ought to pay to the opinion of the Bench heard before in that House by those op-when I remember a learned Judge de-posed to the principles of education- that clared to a Grand Jury in York, no later than the year 1819-what sort of a Grand Jury they could be who swallowed it, I shan't say when I find him, I say, congratulating them and the country on the existence of a National Debt; and telling them, with the gravest face, and in the most earnest manner, that the National Debt was a national blessing-it may be so to some; but it is one which my constituents have not the least relish for-pro the extension of education did not prevent the increase of crime. A great deal had lately been called education, which was only the name of education; and if real education were spread among the people, he believed that great benefit would arise, and that it would have a great effect in preventing the increase of crime. He was aware that Returns might be referred to which showed that an increase of crime had taken place dur of the Sabbath. ing certain periods. The hon: Gentle-as could have been wished, still where it man, however, should consider the circum- had been done, great benefit had resulted. stances out of which that increase had He generally employed from 100 to 200 arisen, and that it had generally been labourers, and he paid them on a Tuesday, found, that most of the criminals had a plan which he found prevented much of been entirely uneducated. He begged the dissipation and drunkenness that were leave, therefore, to enter his protest against occasioned by paying men on Saturday the principle that the hon. Gentleman night. If gentlemen generally would use had laid down, namely, that no decrease the influence they possessed in their own of crime followed the diffusion of educa- immediate districts, to put a stop to the tion. present system, he was sure they would very soon see the most beneficial result. However, he would not be understood as opposed to the enactment of a law on the subject. In making these remarks, he had only endeavoured to show how far the necessity of such a law might be obviated by the force of moral agency. Mr. Faithful remarked, that the noble Lord opposite appeared to have mistaken the meaning of the observations offered by the hon. Member below him (Mr. Cobbett). The latter had not said, as he understood him, that education had no tendency to prevent crime, but the contrary. He (Mr. Faithful) was ready to acknowledge that education had, to a certain extent, the effect of preventing crime, and he had no doubt but a great deal of crime had been prevented by the extension of education of late years. It would, however, while they admitted that principle, be desirable to inquire into the real cause of the increase of crime of late. He believed, that they should find that the increase was attributable to the present horrible system of taxation, and that crime would not be prevented till that system was altered. If an end were put to it, crime would soon decrease. Mr. Aglionby said, that he hoped, with reference to the taxes on knowledge, that the measure which he understood was in contemplation by his Majesty's Ministers would be sufficiently extensive to give satisfaction to all parties. Mr. Wilks thought other means than legal ones should be resorted to for the purpose of enforcing the better observance of the Sabbath. He thanked the hon. member for Stafford for the valuable communication-the result of his personal experience, which he had made to the House on the subject; and for the satisfactory proof he had in so far given of the little necessity of laws for the purpose. Petition laid on the Table. Mr. Hill presented a Petition from Kingston-upon-Hull, praying for a due Observance of the Sabbath. He was happy to hear from the hon. Gentleman who intended to introduce a Bill on the subject, that there was no intention to interfere with the recreation of the lower classes on Sundays. The great difficulty, however, which the hon. Member would have to contend with, was to shape the law so as not to create feelings of hostility between the rich and poor. He trusted the hon. Member would do his best to get rid of that difficulty, as he would then promise him his most cordial support. BETTER OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH.] Mr. Littleton presented three Petitions from certain Inhabitants of London, and two from Derby, expressing their satisfaction at the Report of the Mr. Cobbett remarked that there was a Committee on the subject last Sessions, considerable disposition on the part of and praying for the enactment of a law to many hon. Members in that House to reenforce the better Observance of the Sab-move the disabilities under which the bath. He would not then enter at length into the question; but he would observe that, in his own opinion, moral force would be quite sufficient to effect the object of the Petitioners. In the county which he represented, the Magistrates passed Resolutions a few years ago, calling on masters to pay their men on some other day, so as to do away with the necessity of dealing on the Sabbath; and although that had not been done to such an extent Jews laboured. When this bill, however, for promoting the better observance of the Sabbath, should have passed the Houseshould it so pass-it would be necessary to have some other bill respecting the observance of the Sabbath by the Jews. Their Sabbath was on the Saturday-ours was on the Sunday; so that there must either be some change of their religion on being admitted within the pale of the Constitution, as it was called, or of ours. Now he, for one, was not disposed to change his religion, and he supposed they were as little disposed to change theirs. Well, then, there must be another law about the Sabbath beyond that now contemplated. What he had risen for, however, was to notice what the hon. Member had said about the lower orders -the lower orders. Now, he would be glad to know what was meant by that phrase. The clergy told them that all men were equal in the eyes of the Lord; that all men came out of the hands of the same Maker; and that all alike would have to give an account of themselves to him. What, then, did the hon. Member mean by the lower orders? If he meant that some were greatly and grievously oppressed by heavy and unjust taxation, while others almost wholly escaped, then he admitted that the former might with some propriety be denominated the lower classes; but if the hon. Member did not mean that, he was not justified in speaking of the labouring classes as the lower orders. He would never sit in that House and hear the industrious classes characterised as the lower orders. ment. He had been at a meeting last week, when what were called the rich had come forward most liberally in support of the poor; and amongst those were noblemen, merchants, and a great many clergymen, both of the Church of England and Dissenters. He knew of a clergyman who had sent 17. to Alderman Atkins, to be distributed among the distressed, stating at the same time that he had just sent a son out into the world, and he never did so without giving a donation to the poor. There were in that House many most hon. Gentlemen, in fact there were three or four then present, who bore most honourable characters, whose grandfathers belonged to that class of the community alluded to as the poor. However, there was another class of men in the community, who had made their fortune by exciting the poorer classes against all those from whom they got their living. If any such should find their way into that House, they ought to be spurned. Mr. Hutt said, that he had been requested to support the prayer of the petition, which he did with the greatest sirous to see the Sabbath, which ought to be a day of rest for all classes, properly and religiously observed throughout the country. The poor and industrious classes, who toiled throughout the week, were justly entitled to enjoy that day as a day of rest from their labours; but he thought the laws at present in existence were quite sufficient for punishing the desecration of that day. Sir Charles Burrell said, the hon. mem-pleasure. He was most anxious and deber for Oldham was always speaking of the disposition of the rich to oppress the poor. He denied that there was any such disposition-he denied, too, that the rich escaped the pressure of taxation. He was certainly not very rich, but he knew for himself, and he believed it was the same with the hon. member for Oldham, that he paid his proportion of taxation, and he knew of no persons who escaped. What, he asked were the Poor-rates, and the An Hon. Member said, he had a very House-tax, and the other numerous taxes great respect for all classes of the comthat fell upon landed property? He de-munity who conducted themselves properly. nied, again, the rich escaped taxation. [Mr. Cobbett had never said the rich escaped taxation.] He would be glad to know, then, who they were that, according to the hon. member for Oldham, escaped taxation? Did he mean the fundholders? He (Sir C. Burrell) denied that they unjustly escaped. They had lent their money to the State, and they had as much right to be repaid as would the hon. member Mr. Ruthven said, that upon no subfor Oldham had he lent money on mort-ject more than the one now under discusgage. Indeed, the fallacies of the hon. sion should the term "the lower orders" Member were so gross and palpable, that be kept out of view. In the eye of the they almost carried their own refutation. Almighty there was no difference between Night after night they had heard from the the poorest of the people and the Monarch hon. Member that the rich had no feeling on the Throne. No Member of that for the poor. He must deny that state- House felt a greater desire to promote the Though he did not entertain a very high respect for the political opinions of the hon. member for Oldham, yet for that hon. Gentleman's knowledge of the English language he had a very high respect, and he would feel most particularly obliged to him if he would point out, or give them another term, in place of that which had displeased him-"lower orders." due and religious observance of the Sab-I vocations on the Sabbath Day, no legislabath than he felt. The proper observance tive enactment would render him more of that day, a day which ought to be set attentive to his duties as a Christian. He apart for rest and the exercise of religious agreed with what had fallen from the hon. feeling, harmonized all classes, and tend- member for Oldham in one respect, and ed, in an eminent degree, to make men in one respect only-namely, that if any better members of society. With refer- legislative act were to be passed for the ence to the prayer of the petition itself, better observance of the Sabbath, it ought he must confess, that he felt a great ob- to be directed against all classes. It jection to harsh and severe laws, compel- would be a most improper interference on ling the proper observance of that day the part of Parliament to enact for one being enforced. They ought to observe class of society a Statute for the observthe sacredness of that day with religious ance of the Sabbath, leaving another class feelings, which no law could create, how-exeinpt. He would suggest to hon. Memever severe such a law might be. Hebers who had thought on this subject, and would call upon the clergy throughout the empire to set a good example to their flocks, and to show that religion had had a good effect upon those who professed to practise it, and that they (the clergy), by their preaching and living, might prove its good effects upon themselves. He was sorry to be obliged to state to the House that the clergy, by their conduct, had set a very different example from what they ought, and from what was expected from them; he might truly say, an example which was unworthy to be followed. Mr. Wilks confessed himself a strong advocate for the strict observance of the Sabbath, and therefore he most cordially gave the petition his support. An Hon. Member said, he had heard a great many strange arguments on this subject. It had been said, among other statements, that it was vain to introduce any Statute-law on the observance of the Sabbath at all. If this was to be carried to the full extent of the argument, it could mean neither more nor less than to say that all law might be dispensed with together. This could not be a doctrine very likely to meet with the support of the House or the public. Sir Matthew White Ridley was anxious to say a few words on this very important subject, particularly as he had been intrusted to support a petition from his own part of the country very much to the effect of the one which had just been presented. No man could be more desirous than himself that the Sabbath should, in all respects, be duly observed; but it was his candid opinion, that it could not be made to be more sacredly observed by any legislative Act whatever. If an individual had not a proper sense of what was due to his Creator, so as to induce him to abstain from worldly pursuits and other unchristian he gave them as much credit as he took to himself for a real inclination to observe the Sabbath, that a most effectual way to inculcate a proper and regular observance of the Sabbath was by those who filled high places setting an example which must have its proper influence on other classes. The example of the higher and richer classes would have a great effect in inculcating upon other classes of society the proper observance of the Sabbath, and a much greater observance than any other course that could be thought of. There was an old Act, still in existence, to compel every poor man to make himself decent before he went to church on Sunday. But there was another Act which prohibited barbers from shaving on a Sunday. The latter, however, was generally considered to be so absurd, that it was never enforced. It was well known that a poor man could not have an opportunity on Saturday evening of making himself fit to attend at a place of worship on a Sunday morning, and why there should be a law to prevent him doing it on Sunday morning it was difficult to conceive. He doubted exceedingly the efficacy of any law that could be passed in effecting the object in question. Petition laid on the Table. EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS.] Mr. Hill presented a Petition from a Congregation of Unitarian Dissenters, assembling for Religious Worship, in Bowle-AlleyLane, praying for the removal of all Religious Disqualifications, still existing, and especially for the removal of the Disabilities affecting the Jews. There was one remark of the hon. member for Oldham, upon which he wished to observe. He understood the hon. Member to say, that if the Jews were admitted to |