of Turnpike Bills, Road Bills, and so on. but it most certainly was far from affording adequate accommodation for the reception of that collective body of Representatives whose duty imperatively called upon them to be present at the discussion on every important question. An hon. Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) had seemed to argue that the Representatives of the empire in leaving these sacred walls would leave behind them the inspiration thrown over them by the glorious recollections of the great men who had rendered this pile illustrious by the splendor of their eloquence. This was all very well; and if he (Mr. C. Fergusson) had been happy enough to find that the present Members were rendered one jot greater or more illustrious by the memories of the great men-of the Pyms and the Hampdens-whose presence had dignified this House, then would he be the last man to propose any alteration in locality; but as he had not found this beneficial result, and as he considered the question as a pure matter of accommodation and convenience, he should certainly support the proposed alteration. Some of the Members the other night had been told they must not speak on a question of the utmost importance, because they were not in their places; a great number of hon. Members, according to this rule would nightly be prevented from delivering their sentiments, for in the present building there were no seats for half of them.

Mr. Philip Howard said that, with great deference to the hon. member for Middlesex, he did not conceive any benefit would arise from his Motion "for appointing a Committee for considering further of the expediency of building a new House." He had had the honour of a seat in three Parliaments, and had found that on very few occasions had there been any deficiency of accommodation. He confessed the reasons he had heard were insufficient to justify him in supporting the plan for constructing a new House, which would entail a heavy charge on the public. The building in which their deliberations were then held was endeared to the sons of freedom, not less by the triumphs it had witnessed than by the struggles it had seen. It had been argued by the hon. member for Bridport, that every Member should be allowed in the proportion of two feet three inches each, for sitting room, whilst it was well known that in the army each man occupied only eighteen inches. In reference to the feelings of former times, he observed, that the

Romans never altered their Forum Vetus or Forum Romanum, and in that they evinced not less patriotism than sound philosophy. He was not disposed to do away with this unassuming House. He did not use that term as applied to its Members. He objected to pulling down that building hallowed by its recollections for the purpose of erecting in its stead a semicircular theatrical edifice like that proposed. For hearing, and the transaction of business, the House of Commons was preferable to the French Chamber of Deputies. Supposing, however, a new House, constructed on the most approved plan, there was nothing so difficult as to ensure its being a house well adapted to hearing, for there were instances of rooms built exactly on similar plans and proportions, one well fitted for hearing, the other extremely defective; it was a kind of mystery in the science of acoustics; on the whole he conceived the present House to be as well adapted as any which could be devised for the purposes of legislation. The very House, too, showed that theirs was not a Constitution of yesterday. In that Chair, in which they beheld the present able Speaker, the celebrated Sir Thomas More once presided-from that Chair he had nobly maintained the independence and dignity of the Commons against all regal infringements. That day and the day be fore, which might be termed average houses showed how little call there was for acceding to the views of the hon. member for Middlesex.

Mr. O'Connell rose to say one word to the House in sober sadness. He asked the House whether it was not desirable, that whatever was done in that House, the public should be made acquainted with it, in order to know the proceedings of their Representatives? How could that be done if there were not sufficient accommodation for that portion of the public by which alone the whole could learn? It was desirable that accommodation should be given, and not that the communication should be made by stealth. The thing was now done. The public would not suffer that it should be discontinued. If it were a matter of such decided necessity that it could not be discontinued without causing a revolution, should they not provide convenience for those who gave the Debates to the public? He would give such accommodation, if it were only that it might not be said: "The hon. Member was inaudible." If there were no other reason but that, he should

abroad was a poor reason for refusing the Motion, because there was no foreign Power interested in knowing it which could not, in spite of all precautions, ascertain at any time the strength of any one of our garrisons. In his opinion, the information should be granted, or the House could not be prepared to vote the Army Esti

mates.

Sir John Hobhouse said, the information required was in great part before the House. The Estimates themselves stated what force was in Great Britain, what in Ireland, and what force was in the colonies. But the hon. member for Middlesex wished to know exactly what amount of force was in each colony. Such a return had only been made twice before, and it was curious enough that the return of 1819 was made in detail by the Adjutant General, when he was not required to do so. It appeared to him that no House of Commons, at the commencement of every Session, could fairly call upon the Government to state the manner in which the army of the country was disposed of at home or abroad. That was certainly a matter which should be left to the discretion of the Crown, and the existing Government, according to the emergencies of the times; for there might be circumstances with which the Government alone could be acquainted, to render it of the utmost importance that the mode in which the military force was disposed of should be concealed. With the vast interests of our great empire-with colonies spread over the whole surface of the globe-it was apparent, looking to England, Ireland, and the West Indies, and, indeed, to all parts of the world-that no man could have a right to call upon the Government to proclaim how many troops were stationed in this place and how many regiments in that? It would not only be the grossest imprudence; it would be usurping the power delegated to the Government; and it would be exposing to those who might take advantage of such exposition, what force was to be stationed, in disciplined array, in different parts of the empire. It was no doubt true, as the hon. member for Middlesex and the hon. and gallant member for Worcester had said, that a similar return was presented last year; and that return he begged leave to explain. The right hon. Gentleman who preceded him in office had certain tables before him, in order that he might draw up certain schemes (well worthy of consideration, no doubt,) with respect to the effect of every estab

lishment for a certain number of years; and when he entered the War-office, these tables were filled up, and only waited for the signature of the Secretary-at-War. Sir Henry Parnell shortly afterwards moved for these returns, but they were not for the purpose of giving an account of the disposable force; for they showed the amount of the military establishment from 1817 up to 1832, in each year inclusive. It was for the sake of drawing a comparison between these years, that the right hon. Gentleman had these returns prepared; and from time to time there certainly could be no objection to give such a return. For example, next year his noble friend would have he, supposed, no objection to give that return for the past year; because, the evil effects of now granting it would be obviated. He put it to the good sense of hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it was good as a precedent he would not say to allow the Parliament, for he would trust the Parliament-he would not say the hon. member for Middlesex, for he would trust him, and he might almost say the people, also-but whether it was good as a precedent, to trust the matter to the whole world, and to have it universally known, in what portion of the globe every part of the disposable force of this country might be stationed? It was from no wish of concealment that he made these observations. He could say, as his noble friend had said— that, so far as he was concerned, he should be most happy to give every information which the House or the country could require.

Mr. O'Connell hoped the House would insist, as was its duty, on having the Returns. They should not proceed on guesses, either as to the number or expenses of the army.

Sir John Hobhouse said, that the expense was specified in the papers on the Table.

Mr. O'Connell: Granting that, there were no Returns to show whether the aggregate amount of expense was a proper one or not. The noble Lord, in refusing the Returns, relied upon his character.

Lord Althorp observed, that he resisted the Returns because, if furnished, they would do injury to the public service, otherwise it was the bounden duty of Ministers to grant them, but he had not, he believed, relied upon his character.

Mr. O'Connell: But the noble Lord added, that he was not in the habit of withholding proper information. The right hon. Secretary at War maintained that it was the prerogative of the Crown

STAMP DUTIES.] Lord Althorp moved, that the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means be read.

Mr. Cobbett thought, that was a proper time for him to offer some observations to the House. He had already mentioned, that there was a mass of taxes amounting to eight millions annually, of which the nobility, clergy, and great landowners, paid little or nothing, but which fell almost exclusively upon the tradesman, the farmer, the workman, and the industrious classes generally. He had proposed to bring forward a Resolution recommending the House to take this subject into their consideration. It had since occurred to him, that whilst the unfortunate question of Irish affairs was before the House, it would be better for him to defer bringing forward his Motion until that great question was finally settled. He mentioned this, lest the House should imagine that he meant to abandon his Motion.

Mr. Spring Rice said, that he wished the hon. member for Oldham had brought forward his Motion, or, at least, that he had not intimated his intention of abandoning it in such a manner as to propound an argument, and cause an inference. He disputed the argument, and he denied the inference. He would tell the hon. Gentleman, that all he asked of the House and of him, was a clear stage and no favour. He would dispute every inch with the hon. Gentleman. He denied that there had been, on the part of the Parliament, any disposition to oppress the people. It might suit the object of the hon. Gentleman to make such statements. But he would meet him-aye, he would meet him-he was not afraid to cope with him-yes, he would cope with him foot to foot, and shoulder to shoulder, and might God defend the right! The hon. Member

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might profit by the privelege of Parlia ment, to put any fallacies in print for the purpose of deluding the people; but such a system should be exposed-he would expose it, by himself he would do so. The hon. member for Oldham had made one assertion, he would make another—he declared open hostility on the subject; let the discussion come, and then the public would decide.

Mr. O'Connell said, the right hon. Gentleman who intimated so eager a desire for the discussion, appeared, from his state of preparation, to have an advantage over those on that side of the House. In sober sadness, however, did the right hon. Gentleman mean to deny, that the hon. member for Oldham had abstracted the schedules to the Stamp Act correctly? If he had done so, why, let him remember that vulgar arithmetic never fails. It was not denied by the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he had abstracted them correctly. The only defence which the noble Lord set up was, that many other taxes were in the same situation. It was, however, of no consequence. He did not fear, although the right hon. Gentleman was so chivalrous as to dare the hon. member for Oldham to the combat. Common sense would triumph over Treasury dexterity. There was one part of the Stamp Act which he would just allude to; the stamp upon an arbitration was 20s. If the matter in dispute was worth 50,000l. it was of no consequence-it was no more. But, owing to this, the poor man was prevented from deciding questions which were to him of importance, in a cheap way, because the stamp would frequently amount to as much or more than the value of the subject in dispute.

Mr. Hume said, that, in order to prevent any further disputes at present, he hoped both combatants would at once agree to appoint an early day for deciding the question between them. But, he must say, that his right hon. friend would be a much more clever man than they had yet given him credit for on that side of the House, if he could refute the proposition, that the taxes on stamps pressed unequally, and that the principal burthen was thrown upon the poorer classes. They had often heard of the influence which property ought to possess in this and that case-of the deference which was due to property, but he thought it high time that the House should hear something about property bearing its fair share of