influences, the thing would be done. He believed it would take time to accomplish the result, but it was a result not to be despaired of.

The LORD ADVOCATE said, I am exceedingly sorry that I missed the former part of this discussion, but I am anxious to say a few words before it closes, because it relates to a matter in which I take a great interest, and on which I have spent a very great amount of labour. I rather think that though the direct success hitherto has not been great, the labour I and those who have assisted me have bestowed on these matters has been by no means thrown away; because, though I do not at this moment see the prospect of ultimate success, I do see that the road has been cleared of some obstacles, and I think it is now pretty plain where alone the difficulty lies. The rev. gentleman on my left, I do not wonder, is opposed to any education scheme, because he is quite content with things as they are. He is quite satisfied with the per-centage which he finds go to school, and the percentage who do not go to school troubles him not at all. If he finds so many per cent. attending school, and that that is a larger number than those who attend school in other countries, he is of opinion that that makes it unnecessary for us to continue our educational agitation. Now, that is a very easy way of arriving at what I think is a most fallacious result. But that was not the mode on which the education system of Scotland was originally founded, nor is it the principle on which I think an extension of it should now proceed. For when our forefathers set up the parochial system they did not take the per-centage of children who were educated or uneducated, but they set up a systematic machine--they set up a system by which it should be perfectly certain that the wants of the population should be completely provided for. And that is what we must do. We must not begin to ask how many children have we to educate. We must provide the means of education, and we must take care that the system which we maintain on uniform principles shall be sufficient for the wants of the community, and then we know that the result, so far as we can accomplish it, will be produced. For my own part, I am not at all satisfied with the state of education in Scotland. I do not rest my view on statistics; I do not care what the statistics are. We see it, we feel it, we breathe it in the social atmosphere; and every man conversant with the state of the people of Scotland knows that though much has been done, and we are proud of it, there remains a great deal that can be done, and we are not going to stop short in our course simply because it can be proved that others have done less than we have. The question is, How are we to do it?-and in Scotland we have an enormous advantage in two matters. In the first place we have a parish school system already; it is the only system of the kind that exists in the kingdom, and it is a system based on wise, liberal, and enlightened views-a system that has produced the greatest possible good to this country. The second is what was alluded to by Sir Henry Moncreiff, that we really have none of those serious doctrinal differences, or indeed ecclesiastical differences, that stand in the way in England. Our differences are differences of management, not differences as to what we are to teach in the schools. Therefore, the reasonable and common-sense view would simply be this, now that we have abolished the test for the schoolmaster, why not expend all the public money that is voted on a sufficient, large, and liberal extension of the parish school system of Scotland? That is the only thing practical men should aim at; and one would think, looking at it from a distance, that there was no great difficulty in doing it. I heard a speaker, as I came in, telling us that Parliament should take it into their own hands; that there was so much difference and disputing-differences about trifles-that Parliament ought to step forward and disregard all that, and take the matter into their own hands, and then all the difficulties would disappear. I perfectly agree with him, if Parliament would only do that; but I have been trying during the last ten years to press that on Parliament, but Parliament wont. And why? Simply because the people are not agreed. We have carried two, at least, if not three education bills in the House of Commons, and the difficulty has hitherto been with another, and more august, House, over which perhaps the opinions of the people do not tell so rapidly. But there is a difficulty. If you want legislation in this matter, that difficulty must be overcome. Some people think it is a mere Free Church job; that any

bill coming from this quarter can bear no other complexion. That heresy has been exploded in the House of Commons; it is unfortunately not altogether, though very nearly, exploded in the House of Lords. The last attempt I made, how was it wrecked ?-not from the House of Lords or House of Commons, but from the educationists of Scotland themselves. I speak plainly, for there is no use in speaking anything but plainly in the matter where we really want to come to a practical result. I say, if the Free Church had freely come forward maintaining its own views, but giving a general support, along with the United Presbyterians and the general body of the community, to the measure I introduced last year, I believe we should have succeeded, and in all probability the difficulties that were raised might have been overcome. But, owing to the amount of difference of opinion among the very men who had been agitating for education, not because the measure would not educate the children of this country, but looking to the effect and result of it on their own ecclesiastical arrangements-I say it was that, and that only, which persuaded me not to proceed with the bill. And I will tell you how it happened. The Liberal members came to me and said-Now we have supported you in the matter of education bills over and over again, and we are ready to support this, education bill as well as the last, but we want to know from you whether you have any expectation of carrying it through the House of Lords, because we receive letters from our constituents, our Liberal constituents,-from moderators of Presbyteries, and from ministers of parishes, and persons whose opinions we respect, deprecating this measure, and begging of us not to support it. And therefore they said,-Do not let us stand the whole session wrangling, and putting us in a false position with our constituents, unless we are going to have a successful measure. I could not resist that appeal. I felt perfectly certain, with the amount of divided popular opinion in Scotland, that there was no chance of success. I surrendered the attempt at the time; and I do not at this moment see that I am at all likely to succeed if I make another attempt in the same direction. The truth is, it lies with the people themselves; and I am glad to say that on the part of many members of the Established Church I have found a liberality of opinion and sentiment, which proves to me that some time or other, at all events, the object will be accomplished. That it will be accomplished in my hands I think very doubtful. I am rather beginning to think, looking to the difficulties in the House of Lords, that in all probability it will be reserved for a politician of a different way of thinking to effect this change. All I can say is, that if such a thing should take place, and if such a measure should be proposed from that quarter, it shall have my most ardent, sincere, and earnest support.

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Professor MILLIGAN then briefly replied to the observations which had been made upon his paper. His object had not been to bring forward any definite proposals for a new system, but chiefly to show that there were certain important features of the present parochial system which ought not to be lost sight of in any new scheme which might be proposed or carried out. answer to Mr. Nelson, he explained that he never intended to propose that they should put the new schools under the management of exactly the same boards as those which managed the present schools. He came forward, not as a member of the Church of Scotland, but as a Scotchman. He believed that the discussion which had taken place would do good, and that by the continuance of free discussion and interchange of opinion, they would succeed in finding a basis for a truly national system of education.

Mr. FRASER in reply said, that an objection had been strongly urged against his paper because he had not given statistics, but he would remind them that in the very last paper which he had submitted to this Association he had adduced ample statistics, which had been printed in the Transactions of the Society, and he did not think it likely that the Secretaries would tolerate their repetition. He presumed that those who took part in these discussions had made themselves acquainted with the proceedings of this Department. Although the statistics

* Vol. 1860, p. 347.

just now supplied by Mr. Cumming, appeared to be generally favourable to tho educational state of Scotland, they did not fairly represent the distribution of education. In Glasgow alone, for example, there are 28,000 of school age not receiving instruction; and in its neighbourhood, in Paisley, 3,000. He believed that these and similar results would be brought out satisfactorily only by a Royal Commission of Inquiry. It had been suggested by Professor Milligan that a general committee, representing the educational opinion of the Churches should be appointed, who would calmly consider the whole subject; but he (Mr. F.) would remind them that a similar proposal had been almost unanimously adoptedat the Glasgow Meeting of the Association, and had utterly failed; and it was because it was found impracticable that he urged the appointment of a Royal Commission of Inquiry.

In the course of his ramarks he expressed regret at the absence of the Lord Advocate, because he felt it necessary to take exception to some of his lordship's statements. His lordship had spoken of the rivalry of opinion among the ecclesiastical communities in Scotland as encouraging the House of Lords to reject Bills, providing a system of national education. But for his own part he felt per-suaded that the rivalry of opinion was fully as great in the House of Commons, and that on this account the House of Lords had confidence in rejecting their measures; nor did it seem possible to reach a settlement of the question until opinions dependent on facts had those facts clearly brought out by a Commission of Inquiry. His lordship had laid the onus of his failure to carry his last Educational Bill on the Free Church. Now, the Free Church had supported every measure which his lordship had introduced except the last, and the reason of its rejection was, that they were asked to give up their schools, not to a national system but to another Church. They were not prepared to do this, but he might venture to say on his own responsibility that if his lordship introduced a really comprehensive national system, the Free Church would not hesitate to throw the half million which she had already expended in her own schools into the general scheme. His lordship might count on his support for any fair and adequate national measure. His lordship's last Bill was strongly objected to by many, because it made no reference whatever to their four normal colleges. Although they had cost the country many thousand pounds, and were doing great educational service, his lordship left them altogether unprovided for. review of all that had taken place he had come to the decided conclusion that any further attempt at legislation was not desirable until the educational condition of the country had been thoroughly ascertained by a Commission of Inquiry.

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The PRESIDENT, at the conclusion of the meetings of the Department, read the following letter he had received from Mr. R. R. W. Lingen, Secretary to the Education Committee of Privy Council::

"Education Committee, Council Office, 12th October, 1863.

SIR,-My attention has been called to the following report in the Scotsman newspaper, of the 10th inst., of a part of Mr. Adderley's speech at the meeting of your Department on Friday last:- He (Mr. Adderley) would mention how the code would press upon Scotland with undue weight. It would not recognise the tax upon the heritors for the support of teachers. That would be looked upon as an endowment, not as a voluntary contribution. He thought this was a piece of gross injustice to Scotland, for in every sense this was a contribution from a locality to the support of a school, and it ought therefore to entitle the locality to a subsidiary grant. The code would affect in the same way the burgh schools, which were more in want than parish schools of legislative maintenance.' If you will have the goodness to refer to the Times of 20th June last, you will see that the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education, in reply to a question by Mr. Dunlop, made the following statement: The salaries of parish schoolmasters are not intended to be subjected to the Minute with reference to endowments, inasmuch as they more resemble the contributions of charitable persons who are

living than endowments, with this advantage, however, to the heritors, that the assessments are made by a responsible public levy, and spread over the parish, instead of trusting to the generosity of one man to make up for the parsimony of another. The Minute will be administered in Scotland ac. cording to Mr. Lowe's interpretation of it.-I have the honour to be your most obedient servant,

"R. R. W. LINGEN."

WORKING MEN'S COLLEGES, &c.

Dr. GEORGE LEES read a paper on Industrial Education with reference to Mechanics' Institutions, and commenced by referring to the importance of the education of the industrial classes as bearing upon the material interests of the country. The practical application of mechanical and chemical principles were now so extensive, and those principles in their combinations so varied, as seen in the endless machines in use in this and other countries, that an acquaintance with them on the part of our industrial classes would seem necessary, not only to their proper education, but as the best and most likely means of leading to further improvements in those arts upon which the defence, the welfare, and prosperity of the country so essentially depended. It would seem, therefore, not only an act of justice but of wisdom on the part of the Government, to give to these classes every possible facility and encouragement toward the acquisition of those branches of knowledge upon which all further progress in mechanics and in the arts of construction generally must necessarily proceed. Though it was a gratifying fact that all the great modern inventions-such as the steam-engine, the locomotive, the tubular bridge, the electric telegraph-were of British origin, yet it must not be forgotten that the competition between this and other countries was every day becoming closer and keener in every species and form of invention. Hence the increasing necessity, if we would maintain the prestige so honourably achieved, of giving to our industrial classes not mere popular views of science, but the best education possible, more especially in all such branches of mathematics, chemistry, and natural philosophy as have a practical bearing upon the great and varied objects of human enterprise. Dr. Lees thought that this could only be achieved by the establishment of a comprehensive system of industrial education in all our chief cities and centres of industry over the whole kingdom. It might be possible to give such encouragement to the mechanics' institutions throughout the country as would secure, in addition to the delivery of lectures on general subjects, a separate and distinct department for instruction in the leading branches of science. With regard to the subjects which should form the curriculum of study at such institutions, as bearing most directly upon industrial pursuits, it appeared to Dr. Lees that the course originally adopted at the foundation of the Edinburgh School of Arts in 1820, and since scrupulously foliowed in all its essential elements year after year now for fortytwo sessions, and that with the most encouraging and increasing

success, was one well worthy of being regarded as a model. The excellent and zealous secretary of that institution, Dr. Murray, had informed him that during the time this school had been in operation upwards of 22,000 students had attended it, being a yearly average of 520; and during the three last sessions the numbers had been increasing to 639, 680, and 740 respectively. The three great subjects taught in the Edinburgh School of Arts were mathematics, chemistry, and natural philosophy. After some further remarks on the growing prosperity and usefulness of this institution, Dr. Lees quoted several testimonies in favour of the excellence of the school. "Admitting, then, upon these and such other testimonies, that the Edinburgh School of Arts stands at the head of all the mechanics' institutions in this country, the question arises, might not other places have institutions exactly on this model? There can be no doubt they might, and that simply by adopting the same system and following it out with the same persistency. The subject of study best fitted to awaken workmen to the exercise and pleasure of thinking, and in the progress of its study to impart to them the invaluable power of close and continuous thinking, is geometry. Make sure of a solid foundation here; let the main stress and care of direction be turned towards the mathematical department by securing the best teaching; by personal visits of the classes, and by rewards and encouragements in every possible way, then will success be certain, not only in this department, but in all the others of the system. In all the products of human skill to which we are now referring, we are now, it is admitted, no very great distance ahead of Continental and American neighbours ; and while we should be far from regretting such a state of things, or grudging them the lift in the state of being the sure and certain accompanying of every advance in the arts and sciences-we must not forget ourselves in the grand struggle towards a yet higher state of things-we must not forget that the arts of productive industry are at once the foundation and superstructure of all our greatness-the Alpha and Omega of all our prosperity. Seeing, then, that these things are so, it would surely be but an act of wisdom on the part of the Government, or of others who have it in their power, to give to our artisans throughout the kingdom every possible facility and encouragement toward the study of the mathematical and physical sciences-sciences which, while they tend so much to sharpen the intellect, to elevate and enrich the character, constitute, as we have seen, the primum mobile, the mainspring and soul of our national distinction."

SCOTTISH SABBATH SCHOOLS.

The Rev. R. BLYTH contributed a paper on the "Scottish Sabbath School System." The system, he said, has passed through three phases-1. From 1782 to 1796 it was the result of individual effort directed exclusively to the neglected. 2. In 1796 it flowed in the channels made for it by societies, and from this merged gradually