was of the utmost conséquence to conversations held with Mr. Pitt, this country so far to watch the pro. from day to day, on this subject; gress of his operations as to make and those communications continúuse of them, if they could be made ed during the period I remained sabservient to the purpose of open- at the hcad of the admiralty. I ing the ports cf South America to ceased to be in that situation im. the trade and manufactures of this mediately after the 8th of April, country; and upon that principle, 1805. [ had

many interviews as well as upon every other public with Mr. Pitt after that period, subject, I had almost daily commu- indeed during the whole remainnications, both in town and at Wim- ing period of his life, till our final bledon, with Mr. Pitt, then at the separation in the beginning of the head of the government. The sub- year 1806: from that time i ject was more familiar to iny consi. ceased to be his colleague in office, deration, because for many years and I made it an invariable rule to past, particularly in 1796, I had oc- avoid all conversation with him upon casion to consider it very maturely subjects of a public nature ; so that in concert with the then board of from my own knowledge, I can admiralty. I was at that time secre- speak to nothing after the 8th April tary of state for the war department. 1805, but the last time I saw Mr. In consequence of the conversations Pitt was in 1806. I had with Mr. Pitt, as already men- Q. Does your lordship recollect tioned, about the month of October directing me to attend Mr. Pitt, at or November, and in consequence of Wimbledon, when we discussed all the war with Spain, from the cap- Miranda's views ? and when there ture of four Spanish frigates, 1 de' was no person present but yourself sired sir Home Popham to attend and him ? me, in order that he might be at A, I recollect such a circumstance hand to attend Mr. Pitt and myself and interview, but cannot charge at any time we had occasion to con- my memory

with the precise sult him; and I think about the month. same time, the ship Diadem being va- Q. Was it on the night of the day cant, I wrote a letter to sir Home, that Mr. Pitt went to Weymouth to dated Wimbledon, 1st of Nov. 1804, the king ? stating that gen. Miranda not being A.' It was very likely to be on more urgent with him than with me, that night, as he went from my as he thought we were at war with house. Spain, to commence an attack on Q. Does your 'lordship recollect, Spanish America, and not knowing after conversing with Mir. Pitt on any thing more convenient than that subject, as to the readiest way to place sir Home on-board the for forwarding all the views of ge. Diadem, the letter directed tim, if neral, Miranda, Mr. Pitt's directing the weather was fair, to come up. me to draw up, in concert with him, This letter was not signed by the a memoir, explaining all the views of official secretary, but sent by myself. general Miranda, from time to time Sir Home 'Popham came in

communicated to me, and deliver. quence; I had many communica- ing it, through myself, or by him, tions with him, in consequence of the to Mr. Pitt?

Conse.

It oc

A. I recollect perfectly well re- so far advanced, that the part is ceiving such a memorial, and being which I was particularly to be emVery glad to know the full extent of ployed was to restrict me to the general Miranda's views; but cer. particular object of the Cape, or to tainly avoided to commit myself, allow me a discretion of prosecuor the British government, beyond ting other objects, with a view to the object I have already stated re- open the markets of South Ameri. lative to South America; upon which ca ? subject I had certainly entertained A. Undoubtedly the South-Amea most anxious wish at that time, and rican market was the great object; almost from that time until I was called but I cannot speak to any farther to take the public concerns under details at so early a period of the my more immediate consideration ; business. The business was not so and that anxiety certainly never di. far advanced as to be the submiuished, but much increased, in ject of detailed instructions, which consequence of all the events which might have fixed the pariiculars for some years past had taken more firmly in my niemory. place in the East Indies, the West curs to me, at this moment, as not Indies, and, above all, on the con- improbable, that the coast of South tinent of Europe.

America, in the neighbourhood of Q. In consequence of your lord. Trividad, was at one time looked ship’s great pressure of busmess, it upon as a probable scene for opera. is possible you may not recollect all tions. the circumstances relative to this Q. On hearing of the capture of object so well as myself, who had Buenos Ayres, did your lordship conpothing else to think of; but you sider it as an object waterially admay recollect employing me to draf vancing the great object Mr. Pitt and up such a meinoir ?

you had in view with respect to A. I certainly did employ you to South America ? draw up such a memoir, and I

Mr. Jarvis objected to this ques. thought I expressed myself so be- tion; but the court considered it a fore.

mere question of opinion, and overa Q. Does your lordship, when ruled the objection. you did me the honour to appoint Sir Home Popham said, that by me to the Diadem, recollect that it the question he only meant to prove was for prosecuting, some of the the opinion of the cabinet as to their plans mentioned in the said memoir? original plan of attacking. South

A. When sir Home Popham was America, and their design to follow appointed to the Diadem, the ob. up that intention. ject then immediately in view was Mr. Jarvis answered, that it was to co-operate, either with or with quite sufficient for him that the court out Miranda, in such objects as, objected to his objection, to induce mentioned in the memoir, might be bim to relinquish it. thought conducive to the interests A. No doubt the capture of Bue. of Britain.

cumstance of Buenos Ayres having admissible; and it is the business of been one of the specific objects in sir Home Popham to shew, that offi. view when the armament was in cers had generally exercised a dis-' contemplation in the year 1798; I cretionary power. remember there was an armament Lord Melville.-1 really would then in contemplation, which was to state the affair fully, but I am exgo round Cape Horó, and take Bu. tremely embarrassed upon the sub. enos Ayres in its way.

ject, lest I may be led to discluse Q. Does your lordship recollect confidential matter which should my having been confidentially em. not be made public. But I may ployed, both in the late and present give a general answer; that I know, war, by different members of the sir Home Popham has been employ. cabinet ?

ed confidentially, and has received A. I certainly know sir Home the full approbation of govern. Popham was employed confidential, ment. ly by the different members of the Admiral Stanhope. He may, I cabinet which he alludes to.

think, answer this question, in or. Q. Is it in your lordship's con. der to shew, that sir Home Popham templation, that, in the execution was, upon other occasions, permit. of those instructions, circumstances · ted to exercise discretionary pow. arose which were not provided for ers. in my instructions, nor indeed could Cross-examined by Mr. Jarvis. they be; and that, under these cir. Q. Was sir 11. Popham appoint. cumstances, I exercised any very ed by your lordship to the Diadem large diseretion to obtain the great with a view to carry offensive ope. object for which I was so employ. rations against Spanish South Ame. ed; I particularly allude to one of rica, and what part of it in parti. my missions to the court of St. Pe- cular: tersburgh.

A. I believe sir H: Popham was Mr. Jarvis objected to the ques. appointed to that ship with a view tion, upon the ground, that the of co-operating with general Mi. prisoner sought to infer that, be. randa, to the extent of taking ad. cause he had, upon other occasions, vantage of any of his proceedings, exercised an enlarged discretion, he which would lead to the acquiring, was therefore warranted to do so on on the continent of South America, this occasion.

a trade favourable to this country; Sir Home Popham.--I used it to but I do not recollect any precise shew that I was meeting the object place having been appointed. of the government by whom I was Q. Was sir Home Popham apso employed, and as a justification pointed by your lordship to any for my deviating from my original command authorizing him to attack instructions.

any part of South America ? The court.--You have no occa. A. Certainly not, in the proper sion to trouble yourself as to having sense of the word. before excrcised an enlarged discre- Q. Is there any note, or official tion; you had no reasonable right document, on the records of the ade to presume, that the exercise of a miralty, in your lordship’s recollec. large discretion, in this case, was tion, stating the object for which sir Vol. XLIX.

Dd

Home

Home Popham was appointed to the tion, and his conduct, approved of? Diadem ?

Was he employed as a captain in his A. I cannot speak with absolute majesty's navy, or on service of a certainty, but I should think there nature distinct and different from is not.

the naval service ? Q. Your lordship has said, that A. Upop those of the latter de. Buenos Ayres was the principal scription, except one circumstance object in view, when the armament in the Red-sea, which admits of was in contemplation, in 1796 ; some exception. had your lordship that place in con.

By sir Home Popham. templation at any time since the Q. Was it customary to enter a breaking out of the present Spaminute at the admiralty, when an nish war, up to the time your lord. officer was selected by the cabinet, ship retired from office ?

or the lcading members of it, to A. At all times, and in every con. make the necessary preparations for versation I have had with Mr. Pitt, secret service which was afterwards I make no doubt Buenos Ayres was to be submitted to their considera. often the subject of discussion. My tion ? reason for being so confident of this A. Certainly not. is, that in all the consideration I Mr. Sturges, Bourne was next gave to the subject of South Ame- examined ; but his evidence was of rica, whether the attack was to be little importance. made upon a larger or smaller scale, Mr. Huskisson sworn, and examined I always considered, the Rio de la

by sir H. Popham. Plata as the most important position Q. Had you any conversation for the interests of Great Britain on with Mr. Pitt, in the year 1805, on that side of South America,

the subject of South America, and Q. I would take the liberty of particularly Buenos Ayres; and did asking your lordship whether, with you by his directions take any steps those opinions, it was determined by respecting myself? his majesty's then ministers to make A. I had many frequent conver. any attack upon Bucnos Ayres, and sations with Mr. Pitt, on the sub. whether sir Home Popham was ap- ject of South America, and I might pointed to any command for that say particularly with respect to Bu. purpose ?

enos Ayres. A. I do not believe that his ma. Q. Have the goodness to state jesty's goverument had ever collec. the nature of those conversations tively come to any resolution to with Mr. Pitt in general; but I do make any

attack

upon

South Ame. not wish to exact from you any ricı; and it will be recollected, thing that can affect the interests of after what I have already stated, the state, or of individuals, however that it was only for a few months materially such disclosures mightafter the beginning of 1805 I re- serve iny purpose. mained in office,

A. I believe almost on every ocQ. By the court.-Whether were casion, Mr. Pitt conversed with me the objects, upon which sir Home on the subject of South America, was employed by his majesty's mini. his attention was called to that part sters, in which he used his discre- of the globe particularly by some in2

cident or

occurrence. A person and put a series of questions to brought to me a plan or chart of the learn whether any French force Rio de la Plata, which had been re. were likely to arrive there, and also cently, as he informed me, publish. took preliminary steps with a view ed at Paris, the original being taken to facilitate the capture by a British from the depôt of the king of Spain, force. Those steps were taken very at Madrid ; and he added, that he shortly after the explanations were had intelligence which led him to given to sir Home, and the persons believe that plan would shortly be spoken of in these conversations as a of use to some part of the French person with whom he had communi. navy, who would probably find cated, and who had given him much their way with troops to that settle. information upon the subject. ment. Knowing this person was Q. I think you said Mr. Pitt one on whom Mr. Pitt could place desired you to take some prelimi. reliance, I felt it my duty to com. nary steps, aš, in case of the conti. municate to Mr. Pitt what that per- nuance of the war, it would be of son told me. Mr. Pitt stated to great importance to commence ope. me, generally, the views he enter- rations in South America, and still tained with respect to South Ame. greater to anticipate the supposed rica; and he generally conceived views of France in that quarter of that it would be of the utmost con. the world. Do you know of any sequence to this country to main-' circumstances which happened to tain our naval superiority, and the occasion him to change his opinion facilities to which that superiority as to the value he set on the objects would enable us in distant opera- of his views in South America ? tions against South America, if A. I believe his views in South obliged to carry on the war, as the America were not contined to the success of the confederacy on the mere object of introducing British continent of Europe did not corre.' manufactures, but I have no occa. spond with his wishes, and it was sion for belief that any of his views also desirable to prevent the French with respect to that country were at doing that which they certainly all changed. would do, if not anticipated, namely, Q. Do you think his views ma. by our taking possession of the terially increased by the extraordiSpanish settlements in South Ame. nary and rapid' successes of the rica; he was therefore disposed to French on the continent, and from give credit to the person who gave shutting up the ports of the conti. that information, and hoped wo nent against our trade? should be beforehand with the A., I believe they were. superiority of naval resources. This Cross-examined by Mr. Jarvis. was the general subject of the con. Q. Did Mr. Pitt at any time state versation. I can only state very to you, that sir Home Popham bad generally the purport of Mr. Pitt's any positive or provisional instruc. desire, but I cannot say more, tions to proceed to South America without being so guarded as scarcely after the reduction of the Cape, in to render myself intelligible. I did the event of success in that quarter ? take further eps to obtain infor- A. I never undei stood that he mation respecting, Buenos Ayres, had such instructions.

D & 2

Q. Do