Senator GRONNA. I do not want to take up any of your time, but I would like to say that there are States where prohibition actually does prohibit; I can name those States. And I can say to you in all seriousness-I am sitting here as a judge in this matter; but I want to say to you that you do not want to include all the States when you say that prohibition does not prohibit, because that is not true. In the State of North Dakota, which in part I represent, there is no drinking of beer, or whisky, or anything else, to amount to anything. I want to say that in all seriousness and for 25 years there has been no drinking of beer or whisky to any great amount.

Senator KENYON. What State are you from?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Ohio. I have always admired the man who is a total abstainer, but I have always despised the man who is a hypocrite and legislates for somebody else, and then may manufacture liquor himself, as I have seen prohibitionists do in prohibition States. Senator KENYON. I take it that you are opposed to prohibition in general?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. I am, sir, honestly opposed to it; from practical experience I am honestly opposed to it.

Senator KENYON. What is your business?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. I am secretary of the Brewery Workers' Association.

Senator KENYON. Before that, what was your business?
Mr. PROEBSTLE. I am a brewer by trade.

Senator KENYON. Have you any stock in a brewery?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. No.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Are there any further questions to be asked of this witness?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Now, Mr. Chairman, in addition to what the petition shows, I would like to conclude with an appeal to the committee to make a scientific investigation, as our ally, England, has made into the problem.

The committee which recently made an investigation in England has seen fit to recommend that the increase of beer be provided for to the ammunition makers, as well as to those who are engaged in arduous toil elsewhere; and our ally, England, has even increased the proportion of beer to the soldiers at the front. It is buying its material here in this country, because the members of my organization are making it; that is how I know; the malt for the English beer to-day is malted in the malt houses of America. Members of our organization do the work.

Senator KENYON. How many men are engaged in this country to-day in making beer? Can you give the committee those figures? Mr. PROEBSTLE. Sixty thousand.

Senator KENYON. I thought that was the membership of your organization.

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Yes, sir; it is.

Senator KENYON. Do you not know how many men are engaged in the business

Senator THOMPSON (interposing). Including ordinary laborers. Senator KENYON. Yes; ordinary laborers; everbody engaged in making beer in this country?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Sixty thousand is our membership.

Senator KENYON. Do they all belong to your organization?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Yes. There are some brewers unorganized, but they do not amount to more than about 3,000 or 4,000 men. The brewing industry is entirely organized.

Senator NORRIS. You do not include in that number the men engaged in the saloon business, such as bartenders, do you?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. No.

Senator NORRIS. That is just those actually engaged in the manufacture of beer, is it?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Yes.

Senator NORRIS. What per cent of those so engaged are within the draft age?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Probably 5 per cent. The men engaged in the brewing industry are mostly older men, and they have settled down, like in your home, Senator Norris, and become home owners.

Senator SHEPPARD. You said the convention of the Federation of Labor passed no resolution regarding nation-wide prohibition? Mr. PROEBSTLE. No.

Senator SHEPPARD. Did it pass resolutions regarding any other matters of policy before the country?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. On general labor propositions. Now, the miners, for instances, have expressed themselves very strongly, Mr. Chairman, to the effect that they can not mine coal if you take the beer away from them; and I urge this committee to make an investigation in West Virginia, where the miners refused to work two or three days a week, in order to supply themselves with what they believe is necessary to their comfort in life.

Senator THOMPSON. I may have misunderstood your statement on one point, or you may not have said exactly what you intended. You do not mean to tell the committee, do you, that there are 40.000 breweries engaged in brewing beer now in the State of Oregon? I understood you to make that statement.

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Fifty thousand.

Senator THOMPSON. Fifty thousand?
Mr. PROEBSTLE. Home breweries.

Senator THOMPSON. Fifty thousand breweries engaged in the brewing business?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. No; they buy their material at the grocery store and brew it at home in their kitchen.

Senator NORRIS. Well, those 50,000 do not sell any beer; they drink that themselves?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. They drink that themselves and God help them. Senator NORRIS. Well, I think God ought to help them; He will have a job on his hands.

Senator THOMPSON. You do not mean they are engaged in the brewing business like the membership of your organization, do you? Mr. PROEBSTLE. No; they are engaged in a home manufacturing business; in other words, prohibition has killed legitimate manufacture of beer and transferred it to the home manufacturer.

Senator THOMPSON. Have you ever investigated that matter in the State of Kansas, which has had successful prohibition for many years now? We do not have any such brewing business as that, unless I am very much mistaken.

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Mr. PROEBSTLE. No; but you sell all kinds of whisky and beer in Kansas.

Senator THOMPSON. Do you mean to say publicly?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. Well, I bought it publicly in a drug store.
Senator THOMPSON. How many years ago was that?

Mr. PROEBSTLE. In Parsons, only two years ago.

Senator THOMPSON. Well, we would be glad to have men like you report to the authorities where you can make purchases of that character.

Mr. PROEBSTLE. I did it for my own information. I want to say that I am not a whisky drinker; but I drink beer, and have done so all my life.

Senator THOMPSON. But you do find the law strictly enforced, especially since the "bone dry" law went into effect, in our State? Mr. PROEBSTLE. And the mine owners, as well as the miners, have appealed to the governor to supply them with beer.

Senator THOMPSON. They did not get it, however.

Mr. PROEBSTLE. I think an arrangement has been made that beer can be handled in the mines by the mine owner.

Senator THOMPSON. You are very much mistaken about that; no such thing as that can be accomplished. I will say that there can not be a single sale of liquor in Kansas without an arrest being made and a prosecution to the bitter end resulting; not a single one.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Mr. Colby, the committee will be very glad to hear from you now. I will call your attention to the fact, however, that the time at the disposal of the committee is very limited.

STATEMENT OF HON. BAINBRIDGE COLBY, MEMBER UNITED
STATES SHIPPING BOARD.

Mr. COLBY. I thank the committee very much for hearing me. Senator SMITH of South Carolina. Will you state your occupation and official position, Mr. Colby?

Mr. COLBY. I am exclusively occupied now in connection with my duties on the United States Shipping Board.

Senator SMITH of South Carolina. We only have a very few minutes left; but as an officer of the United States Government has asked that a member of its force be heard, I will ask the committed to extend the time for just few minutes and give the same exten

sion of time to the other side.

Mr. COLBY. I thank you very much for your courtesy, Mr. Chairman; but I shall require only the very briefest time to say what I have in mind.

I do not appear here, gentlemen, strictly upon any prompting of my own. I have not followed the discussion of the prohibition question in Congress in any of its phases with anything approaching studious and consistent attention. I say "in any of its various phases," because the motive of prohibition, the efforts of the sincere partisans of prohibition, have manifested themselves in various actions, both immediate and indirect.

I think I am stating the opinion of a great many observant men when I say that this rider upon an appropriation bill is regarded

by the generality of men as the attempt of the believers in the cause of prohibition to drive an important salient into the territory occupied by the opposition, and that in discussing it we can brush aside the avowed purpose or ostensible motives, and look upon it as a new advantage upon the part of the prohibition advocates.

I say that I did not come here, strictly, upon any prompting of my own. I am here to make a mere statement of belief and opinion entertained by the United States Shipping Board and the Emergency Fleet Corporation, the men, and the instrumentality upon which the Government has put this very responsibe work of building our merchant fleet, of building transports for the conveyance of our troops; of keeping apace with the ravages of the submarine. We believe, and it is an opinion formed deliberately and after much consultation and interchange of opinion, that the effect of this bit of legislation would be to reduce the efficiency of the workers in the shipyards, and to reduce their output of tonnage, by a very substantial amount. It is impossible for us to estimate that with accuracy; it must of necessity remain a matter of opinion until there is some experience upon which to base assertions. But I have heard the statement made by men who are in very close touch with the work going on in shipyards that the diminution in output which they apprehend as the indirect result of this legislation will certainly be as much as 25 per cent.

Senator KENYON. Does that apply to the aeroplane production also?

Mr. COLBY. I am not discussing aeroplane production, Senator. I have become, by intention, a most narrowminded and concentrated person; I look neither to the right nor to the left. Somebody asked me the other day about the conditions in another department of the Government; and I said, "I am more ignorant of that then any man you can pick out to interrogate." We have a task almost beyond our faculties. It certainly completely deserves the energies of the men working on it; and, as I say, I look neither to the right nor to the left. I am talking to you about the effect of the proposed legislation in the shipyard.

Senator THOMPSON. How do you arrive at that? You say there is nothing to base it on.

Mr. COLBY. I was at pains to say that it was a matter of opinion. Senator THOMPSON. Yes.

Mr. COLBY. I will tell you how that opinion was reached: The work in the shipyards is very arduous; much of it is what you would call severe, hard toil. The men are engaged in work that taxes their muscular power. They work under conditions that are very trying to their physical condition. They are, many of them, men of foreign birth and extraction. They are accustomed to a mode of life in which this legislation would constitute a most violent change. They are, many of them, simple men; they are men who have been trained from early childhood to regard these indulgences as innocent; to regard their use of these stays and stimulants as in the nature of personal rights; to look upon their withdrawal as not only a hardship, but as an injustice; and if you realized the pains that we have been to to develop in the shipyards that spiritual attitude toward the work, that morale on the part of the worker, which

is a combination of encouragement and reward, or interest, of pleasure, of competition, and of contentment, you would realize how gravely we look upon anything which would tend to counteract that feeling, and put into the heart of the humble and yet patriotic shipyard worker a feeling of restlessness, discontent, and even physisal deprivation and hardship.

Senator KENYON. Is that the unanimous opinion of the Shipping Board?

Mr. COLBY. I think I may say that that is not only the unanimous opinion of the Shipping Board, but of the men in more immediate charge of the work in the shipyards of the Emergency Fleet Corporation.

Senator KENYON. And you come to the committee representing the Shipping Board, do you?

Mr. COLBY. Exactly; and at the request of its chairman.

Senator KENYON (continuing). And state to the committee that, in the opinion of the Shipping Board, the passage of such a provision as this would retard the shipbuilding work?

Mr. COLBY. That is precisely the point I desire to make. And I desire not only to make that point, but I desire to have you absolve me from any intention to take part in the debate of a very great question. I have not given, as I say, anything like the time and study necessary to a mastery of this question in any of its important phases.

But will you allow me to say one thing further? It was only a few months ago that I went to the French front. I went to Europe, as some of you may recall, in connection with the American Mission to the Inter-Allied War Conference. I brought back with me a very deep impression of the concentrated thought and attention in Europe upon the mere problems of the war.

I am saying this that I am about to say, not in the least degree with any critical motive. But, as I see the intentness, the time, the earnestness, the interest that is thrown into this question, it strikes me as singular and strange that there is so much energy, parliamentary, studious, controversial energy in the country, when all our energies are needed from one ocean to the other to-day to throw back this terrible danger that confronts free institutions.

Senator KENYON. Food is needed, too, is it not?

Mr. COLBY. Senator, I refuse to be diverted by the titular heading of this bill.

Senator KENYON. It is not titular.

Mr. COLBY. The Food Administration is in hands in which the country places great confidence and reliance, and when I hear the Food Administration insisting upon this as a dernier resort, as a measure of emergency, I shall look upon this as a conservation, and not as a prohibition measure.

Senator NORRIS. Mr. Colby, what I am asking you is not asked in any spirit of contention. I am very much impressed by what you say, but I wanted first to ask you about your objection to this legislation in the way of a rider. A good deal of the legislation of the country is put into operation in that way.

Mr. COLBY. Do you not think that we all regret that that is the case?