Tollemache, J. Meynell, Capt. Morgan, O. Mundy, E. M. Neeld, J. Turnor, C. Newry, Visct. Verner, Col. Northland, Visct. Waddington, H. S. TELLERS. Freemantle, Sir T. List of the NOES. Bannerman, A. Barron, Sir H. W. Ferguson, Col. Ferguson, Sir R. A. Pollock, Sir F. Praed, W. T. Pringle, A. Duncombe, T. Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Ellice, E. Evans, W. Berkeley, hon. C. Bernal, Capt. Bodkin, J. J. Bowring, Dr. Browne, hon. W. Buller, E. Gore, hon. R. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Cavendish, hon. C. C. Hall, Sir B. Colborne, hn. W.N.R. Crawford, W. S. Hayes, Sir E. Hill, Lord M. Clause agreed to. On clause 7 being put and objected to, Sir R. Ferguson proposed that the appeal should be to the next going judge of assize, instead of to the justices at the next general sessions. Mr. Pigot thought that it would be much better to leave the matter to the discretion of the justices who possessed local knowledge, instead of throwing the duty on the judge, who had not the same opportunity of obtaining information. Mr. Smith O'Brien moved that the Chairman report progress. The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress, the Committee to sit again. - APPEALS PRIVY COUNCIL.] Viscount Palmerston objected to the 11th clause of the bill. It appeared to him to be directed against a particular individual, Lieutenant Burslam, and it would have the effect of an ex post facto law. Sir James Graham said, it appeared to Hallyburton, Ld.J. F. him that the clause would inflict a personal hardship; but upon consultation with the highest judicial authorities, he was of opinion that the clause should pass, and that it should do so for the purpose of effecting that particular case al luded to. Horsman, E. Hutt, W. Labouchere, rt. hn.H. Mr. Thesiger considered that such a mode of legislation was unprecedented in this country. It never before, at least, had been avowed. Lieutenant Burslam had taken advantage of the law, as he had Bill went through committee. To be reported. The House adjourned at half- past one. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, June 27, 1843. MINUTES.] BILLS. Public.-10. Sugar Duties. Private.-1. Saggart Inclosure Award (or Swifts Hospital) a right to do, and it would be monstroussures for obtaining a more speedy and now to deprive him of that which the law comprehensive corrective system. Το gave him. this end, it was proposed to anticipate the accruing funds of the commission, and to borrow on the security of the estates now in their hands, or which would come into their hands by the operation of the law, the sum of 600,000l. to be applied at once to the endowment of a considerable number of additional benefices in the most populous and spiritually destitute parts of the kingdom. He could not omit this opportunity of inculcating on those who concentrated population in vast masses in the manufacturing districts and used them as the means of accumulating wealth, the necessity of doing something for the education of the children under their charge, and the provision of pastoral care and superintendence for those who contributed by their own labours and privations, and those of their children to the accumulation of that wealth purchased at so great a sacrifice. Those on whose lands manufactories have been built, and let out, were equally bound to this duty, in proportion to their inter ests and means. Much good had been effected within the last few years, by the ecclesiastical commissioners, and with their assistance great progress had been made in supplying the spiritual wants of the metropolis, and of those districts of the country which stood most in need of increased pastoral care. He had great bour (No. 2). 2. Oxnam's Estate; Bolton Waterworks. 3. and passed :-Southampton Docks; Leighton Bussard Eastern and Maidstone Railway; Bristol and Gloucester Railway: Ballochney Railway; Forth Navigation; Harbour; Saltcoats Harbour; Belfast Harbour; Wexford Harbour; Piel Pier; Kentish Town Paving; Leamington Priors Improvement; Glasgow City and Suburban Gas; Thames Lastage and Ballastage; Birmingham and Gloucester Railway; Merthyr Tydvil Stipendiary Magistrates; Plymouth, etc., Roads, Carriages, and Boats Regulation; Bannbridge Roads; Balfour's Estate; Hawkins's Estate; Inclosure; Chalgrove Inclosure. against the Irish Poor-law, and to be relieved from the Re-payment of the Money advanced by Government. CHURCH ENDOWMENTS.] The Bishop of London, in moving the second reading of the Church Endowment Bill, said, this measure, which he anticipated would be of great advantage to the Church and the country, had passed through the other House of Parliament with great unanimity, and he hoped would be received by their Lordships with an equal measure of favour. He did not contemplate any objection to the principle of the bill, which was to enable the Church to provide, from her own resources, more effectually for the spiritual destitution which prevailed so extensively in some parts of the kingdom. The operations of the ecclesiastical commissioners were too slow in their progress to supply an adequate remedy to evils which must otherwise exist in undiminished intensity; it therefore appeared advisable to take mea pleasure in acknowledging that large landed proprietors, and others whose means enabled them, had come forward in his own diocese, and by liberal contributions to the endowment fund, or by erecting churches at their own expense had done much for the mitigation of a large amount of evil. He believed it to be the best policy for the Church to put forth its own resources in the first instance for the extension of its means of usefulness, in order that if, at some future time they should find that those resources were insufficient, and that there were still insuperable obstacles to the diffusion of religious knowledge, they might not find the Legislature indisposed to help them in the great work. As there was a considerable number of amendments to be made in the bill, he should propose to fix a day for committing it pro forma, when the amendments could be made and the bill printed to be afterwards re-committed Lord Monteagle said, that the bill could over an opponent. He trusted that the measure before the House which established additional means of religious instruction, and which was founded, as the right rev. Prelate stated, upon the most unexceptionable principles, would be permitted to pass their Lordships' House. He hoped that the measure would be followed by others having the same object in view, viz., the dissemination of sound religious instruction amongst the large classes of the community. not be more appropriately introduced than by the right rev. Prelate who had made such exertions to promote Christian and religious instruction. There were some characteristics of this bill of which he approved, such as the encouragement held out to individuals to contribute by vesting the patronage of the Church in the persons who assisted in its endowment. If that principle were more generally adopted, religious instruction would have been more extended. The right rev. Prelate and the Ecclesiastical commissioners had done wisely in obtaining aid in this way. He would recommend more economy in the decoration of churches. The money ex-built through his exertions, and if the pended in outward show in many of the new churches such as those in Marylebone and St. Pancras, might have been much better expended in providing actual accommodation for the church-goers. Many people, who would have cheerfully submitted to local taxation for the real purposes of church accommodation, felt re-indulge in their taste for decoration. pugnant to the idea of being taxed double and treble the necessary amount, for mere matters of decoration. The Bishop of London said, that in the northern and eastern districts of the metropolis about forty churches had been noble Lord would go and look at those churches, he would not find any of them overloaded with unnecessary decoration. The churches to which the noble Lord had alluded were built by local self-taxation; and, of course, those who taxed themselves for that purpose were at liberty to Bill read a second time. THE SCOTCH CHURCH.] Lord Brougham would take that opportunity of expressing his surprise at the extraordinary manner in which the House had proceeded on the preceding evening with the Church of Scotland Benefices Bill. He had requested, that the bill might be postponed, as he was suffering from indisposition, and could not remain in the House to take a share in the debate. The bill declared that to be law which the judges of Scotland had pronounced not to be law; and which their Lordships, in confirming the judgment of the Scottish courts, had likewise declared to be illegal. The bill was a direct insult to all the judges of Scotland, and this insult was inflicted to gratify some private parties. That came of having a relation in the Cabinet. Lord Brougham approved of the bill. He regretted that the zeal which animated religious parties in this country was not better guided by knowledge and more tempered by charity. His noble Friend (Viscount Melbourne) had done himself honour by taking the earliest opportunity to express his regret at the loss of the education clauses of the Factories Bill. Like his noble Friend, he had had many petitions entrusted to him, praying for the withdrawal of those clauses; but though he felt much respect for the individuals who had signed these petitions, yet he could not concur in their hostility. He must be permitted to say, whilst alluding to that question, that the Church had gone a great way to meet the peculiar sectarian opinions prevalent in the preThe Earl of Haddington thought the sent day, and he much regretted that noble and learned Lord could not have these sects had not themselves manifested chosen a more inconvenient manner or a a spirit of concession. They had not, more extraordinary time for introducing however, gone a single step towards the such remarks, instead of taking an opporChurch party, and the consequence was,tunity of expressing his sentiments when that the important measure was lost. The the subject was regularly under discusprediction which he had made four years sion. [Lord Brougham: Was I bere last previously had then been fulfilled. What-night?] The Earl of Haddington: The ever zeal the religious parties of the opportunity was certainly chosen for these country manifested for the promotion of singular observations, when his noble religious education, that religious zeal Friend, (the Earl of Aberdeen) was abwas marred by either controversial acri- sent. His noble Friend felt himself immony or by a desire to obtain a victorypelled by a sense of duty to take the HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, June 27, 1843. MINUTES.] ELECTION PETITIONS.-By Mr. Gisborne, from Alfred Butler, against Portions of the Evidence given before the Nottingham Election Committee. BILLS. Private.-Reported.-Deptford Poor and Improve ment; Monkland and Kirkintilloch Railway. course he had taken. His object was, if | possible, to prevent a farther diminution and weakening of the church of Scotland; believing that if this bill were not passed, their Lordships would see the church of Scotland disestablished. He thought the noble and learned Lord had expressed himself somewhat rashly on the present occasion; for he had yet to learn that the opinions of a court of justice, pronounced in the decision of a cause, carried such weight with them as to preclude their Lordships from legislating on the subject. 3o and passed:-Inchbelly (Glasgow) Road: Tay Ferries. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. S. Crawford. from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and Gateshead, for the Repeal of the Legislative Union with Ireland.- By Mr. Hume, Mr. M. Gibson, Mr. Wallace, Lord Ebrington, and Sir T. Wilde, from a number of places, for carrying out Rowland Hill's plan of Post-Office Reform.-By Mr. Aldam, from Leeds, in favour of the County Courts Bill.-By hon. Members, from Bolton, and Ashton-under-Line, for a Duty on Wood sawed by Steam Power.-From York Street, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.-From Huddersfield, against the County Courts Bill.-From Cork, for placing the Irish Spirit Trade on the Same Footing as the English.From Belfast and other places, for Regulating the Working Hours of Bakers in Ireland.-From Belfast, for Amending the Law relating to the Merchant Scamens Fund.-From Maidstone, against the Beer Act.-From Belfast, etc., for Extending to Ireland the Act 1 and 2 Vict. relating to Tenements Recovery.-Frou Arbroath, against Machinery. From Leeds, for withdrawing the King of Hanover's Pension.-From the Kenmare TeeTotal Society against being made to appear a secret society. From Islington and Manchester, in favour of the Scientific Societies Bili.-From Lambeth, for Removing the Chartist Prisoners from Stafford Gaol to the Queen's Bench Prison.-From Bethnal Green, against the Poor-laws.-From Bacup, respecting Smoke from Factories. From many places against, and one in favour of Factories Bill.-From Thomas Russell, complaining of Pensions to Royal Family. Lord Brougham: The noble Lord complains of what he calls the extraordinary opportunity selected by me for my singu lar observations! What care I for a public breakfast? The extraordinary part of the matter is, that the Earl of Aberdeen should not be in his place to answer me. The noble Earl knows that I was here last night, and asked, as a personal favour, on the ground of indisposition, that the committee on the bill might be postponed. I was the party about to be put on my trial. I was the party whose law was about to be declared to be wrong, by this political act which interferes with the functions of the judges in your Lordships' House. I was not, however, to be indulged, it seems, for, to my utter astonishment, the bill was debated in my absence, and my law was declared to be erroneous behind my back. That is extraordinary; and not that Ipation at Scinde? come down on the first occasion to complain of the treatment I have received. I will not condescend to discuss the question of the Scottish law with my noble Friend. WAR IN SCINDE.] Mr. Roebuck inquired if it was the intention of the Government to propose a vote of thanks to Sir C. Napier and the army now in occu Lord Stanley said, that looking at the achievements in Scinde, in a military point of view, there could be but one feeling of unmingled satisfaction and pride at the gallantry and skill that had been disLord Campbell thought his noble and played by the commander and the army learned Friend was not only justified in in surmounting the obstacles that had been taking the earliest opportunity of com- opposed to them-the intense heat, the plaining of the manner in which the bill difficulties of the country, and the superior had been brought on last night, but he numbers by which they had been encounwas quite right in doing so. The bill tered-the gallantry and skill that had raised the question of the validity of his been evinced combined to render their noble and learned Friend's decision, and achievements equal, if not superior, to on that ground his noble and learned any that had been recorded of the British Friend asked that the bill might be post-arms in these later times. Her Majesty's poned till this day, or Thursday. That Government had not been unmindful of request was refused, because there was the services of Sir C. Napier and his galthis day to be a breakfast, at which lant army, and he (Lord Stanley) had the most of the noble Lords who usually sat satisfaction of announcing that her Maon the opposite benches were to be pre-jesty had issued her commands that the sent, and which, it seemed, they preferred to a discussion on the law of the church of Scotland. .Their Lordships adjourned. Grand Cross of the Military Order of the Bath should be granted to Sir C. Napier, in addition to a regiment which had already been conferred upon him. With be made good, by an alteration in the regard to the manner in which her Ma- | sustained in the first instance, yet the ultijesty's approval of the gallant conduct mate defalcation might to a great extent should be conveyed to the officers and men under Sir C. Napier's command, and who so well deserved to share in the honours of their general, he could not at that moment state anything decisive, but the subject was at the present moment under the consideration of the military authorities. With respect, however, to a vote of thanks, the hon. and learned Member would find that, according to the precedents, it was not usual to propose such a vote until the operations had been brought to a termination. There was little doubt as to the operations of Sir C. Napier having been finally successful, but the next mail would bring intelligence which would enable the House to form a more complete judgment on the present case; and for the present, therefore, he would defer announcing any intentions on the part of her Majesty's Government. POSTAGE REFORM-MR. R. HILL.] Sir Thomas Wilde rose to call the attention of the House to a petition which had been presented by Mr. Rowland Hill, on the subject of the Post-office. He felt satisfied that the House, after what had occurred, would deem the matter to which the petition related of sufficient importance to justify him in bringing it under the consideration of the House. It would be "That they (the Commissioners) had sufficiently informed themselves on the subject to be satisfied that an alteration of the present system was absolutely necessary.” The defect of the existing system must be obvious from the fact, that during the twenty years previous to the appearance of Mr. Hill's pamphlet, notwithstanding the great increase of population, and the extension of trade, no improvement had occurred in the revenue of the Post-office. The noble Lord, the present Postmaster-general, gave certain evidence before the commission in the year 1836, which will be found in the sixth report. He did not know whether the atmosphere of the Postoffice had any particular effect, but opinions are much changed, when persons have been occupied for a certain period on that spot. What therefore might be the opinion of the noble Lord on the subject at the present moment he would not venture to say; but, if the improvements suggested for the Postoffice management were to be left entirely to the conduct and control of the Post-office authorities themselves, it was essentially necessary to know what had been their conduct in former times, in order to ascertain with what vigour improvements had been carried out. The noble Lord being asked whether in the course of his inquiries as a Post-office commissioner, he had formed any opinion as to the merits of the then present system of conducting the department under a Postmaster-general, or as to the propriety of substituting any other form of manage ment, answered as follows: in the recollection of the House, that at a time, which the state of the revenue did not render peculiarly propitious for that purpose, the House entered into an inquiry as to the practicability of a plan proposed by Mr. Rowland Hill, for the purpose of reducing the postage upon letters from the then various amounts to one uniform charge of one penny. It was not disguised that such a plan must be attended, in all probability, with a permanent diminution of revenue, to a small amount, while it would lead to a temporary diminution to a considerable extent. But the House evinced its high estimate of the value of the plan, by adopting it, notwithstanding it was especially expedient to avoid at that time reducing the revenue, except for objects of paramount importance. This plan had been published by Mr. Rowland Hill, in the year 1837, when he first presented to the public atten-missioner to have been able to consider that sub"I was not long enough in the office of Com tion the great advantage which would ject with my Colleagues; but my observation result from the adoption of a uniform rate of the Post-office bas led me to this conclusion. of postage, accompanied by considerable re- I think the present system has proved that it duction; and expressed an opinion, that is not at all adapted to the active circum although a loss in the revenue would be stances of the times, and I should feel disposed |