parishes as paupers, by the order of some magistrate. The Report having been ordered to lie on the table, Mr. Wynn commented on the distressing situation in which these unfortunate individuals had been placed, and suggested the expediency of some permanent measure being adopted, to prevent the recurrence of similar circumstances in future. This he thought might be effected by making individuals who presented petitions against the returns of members, and who entered into recognizances duly to prosecute the allegations in such petitions, also to enter into a recognizance to provide for the maintenance of the witnesses summoned at their instance. At present, he thought it behoved the House to provide for the persons who had obeyed the writ of the Speaker; and cited the case of some witnesses summoned on the Shaftesbury election committee, at a former period, as a precedent for such a proceeding. In conclusion, he moved" That an humble Address should be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying, that he would be graciously pleased to give directions for the payment of a reasonable compensation to the individuals summoned to attend the Great Grimsby Election Committee, and assuring his Royal Highness that the House would make good the same." The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted the necessity of some such legislative provision as had been alluded to by the hon. gentleman, and commiserating, as he did, the situation of the unfortunate persons whose case had come under the consideration of the House, he should second the motion. The question was then put and carried. MR. GRATTAN'S MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE ON THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS-ADJOURNED DEBATE.] Lord Castlereagh moved, that the order of the day for resuming the Debate on the motion made yesterday,That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into its most serious consideration the state of the laws affecting his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain and Ireland, with a view to such a final and conciliatory adjustment as may be conducive to the peace and strength of the united kingdom, to the stability of the Protestant establishment, and to the general satisfaction and concord of all classes of his Majesty's subjects," be now read; and the same being read: (VOL. XXIV.) Sir John Cox Hippisley rose and said: Mr. Speaker; consistently with those feelings, which I have, at all times, uniformly professed on this important subject, it is impossible for me to give a silent vote. The principles and sentiments which I entertain are so well known to the House, that it will be unnecessary for me to occupy much of your time on the present occasion. I have taken every opportunity of giving currency to my opinions, and to the uncontroverted facts upon which they are founded. [The hon. baronet then proceeded to take a review of certain publications which had recently appeared in a morning paper, and particularly some passages copied from what were termed, the Blue Books,' which, in a former debate, had been quoted by a hon. member (Mr. Yorke), who, he said, had been led to form a very erroneous opinion in reference to that part of the subject on which they treated.] The fact is, that the names of 1,400 Catholics have not been withdrawn from the protestation of 1789, as has been averred in the article in the news-paper, nor have the Catholics been urged to withdraw their names by their apostolic vicars. The protestation is lodged in the British Museum, and not more than four or five names have been withdrawn, and only one of the apostolic vicars. It is true an objection was raised by the apostolic vicars against the oath, proposed in the Bill, drawn up subsequent to the original protestation; which oath, indeed, had passed with the Bill, through the House of Commons. The apostolic vicars unquestionably did caution the Catholics to oppose it, not because it was opposed to the renunciation of any of the obnoxious tenets, which were disavowed in the protestation, but because it, constructively, in their opinions trenched upon what theologians call, the power of the Keys;-and in this view, also, it was regarded by the late bishop Horsley, when it came into the House of Lords, the bishop declaring that he could not take such an oath himself, and that he should think very ill of any clergyman of his diocese who had taken such an oath. The result was, that the oath was corrected in the House of Lords, and sent down to the Commons, and the oath, so corrected, now stands in the act of 1791, and was recommended by all the apostolic vicars, to be taken by the Catholics of their districts. (3 I ) From this statement the House will see I never was an advocate for an actual how erroneous a view the right hon. gen- nomination, exercised by the crown, to tleman (Mr. Yorke) has taken of this pro- the Roman Catholic prelacies, but I have ceeding, and consequently, how much contended that the negative of the crown, misrepresented the whole transaction has upon all such appointments, ought to be been in the public prints, and how likely enforced. I may instance what occurred to create the most injurious impressions. upon a former occasion, with respect to Dr. Among many other striking facts, we Hussey, the titular bishop of Waterford, cannot but look to the introduction of the whose conduct at Madrid, in 1780, was Irish militia, consisting of near 10,000 men, such as ought to have excluded him from who have been brought to this country, being nominated to a Catholic see in Ireand possess so much the confidence of his land. I also, on a former occasion, instanced Majesty's ministers, that they are stationed the case of Dr. Bellew, the titular bishop in the most vital parts of the empire,-at of Killala, merely to shew that cases might Portsmouth, at Plymouth, at Chatham, arise where no rational objection could be Dover, Harwich, &c.-constituting a taken to the character of the individual, guard over 30 or 40,000 prisoners of war but where, nevertheless, a combination of of their own religion. This fact may circumstances might produce cause of enable the country, more adequately, to objection, at a particular crisis. I have appreciate the value of our Roman Ca- long known Dr. Bellew, and believe that tholic fellow-subjects, as contributing to no man reflects more credit upon his spithe safety of the empire. Nor can the ritual charge; yet, if his nomination to it resources of Ireland be overlooked in ano- had taken place in 1798, instead of many ther important view, when it is in proof years anterior, he would have found a brothat her exportations, in provisions alone, ther unfortunately engaged in the rebelamounted, in the year 1811, to a sum fall-lion, and marching, with a hostile force, ing very little short of eight millions sterling, a great part of which must have administered to the exigences of our army and navy. These facts should live in our memory, and serve to stimulate our endeavours to secure all their advantages, by measures of conciliation. This great object I have never lost sight of, though the means by which I have endeavoured to promote it, have often been misconstrued. [The hon. baronet here entered into a detail of the proceedings, connected with the subject of the Catholic claims, from the period of the acts of 1791 and 1793. He adverted to the causes of the failure, but, as a proof that Mr. Pitt had never changed his opinions, in favour of the measure, he quoted a passage of considerable length, from Mr. Pitt's speech, in the debate of 1805 on Mr. Fox's motion, and concluded with this sentence, Such were my sentiments formerly, such are they now, and if by a wish, I could carry such a measure into effect, I am ready to confess that I see no rational objection.' He afterwards went into a detail of the securities, which he had uniformly considered as necessary guards of the church and state, as by law established, and which, he maintained, were not fanciful expedients, but such as every government in Europe had adopted, of whatever religious communion.] against the capital of the very see, to which he had been himself nominated. Another measure of regulation I have also, repeatedly, pressed upon the consideration of the House-a measure which has, also, been sanctioned by the wisdom and policy of every other state-namely, a regulated controul upon the intermission of all Papal rescripts. In other countries, no such rescripts are allowed to be current, without the previous sanction of the state. We have, indeed, an act of the 13th of Eliz. standing as a barrier against such intromissions; but it is impracticable from its sanguinary provisions, and consequently entirely evaded. To regulate all these objects, so essential, in my opinion, to the security of the Catholic, as well as the Protestant subject, it is absolutely necessary to go into a select committee. [Sir J. Hippisley then went into further details, of considerable length, concerning the canons of various councils,-particularly the fourth Lateran, and those of Constance and Trent, and maintained that the regulations of discipline, enacted by those and all other councils, had no practical obligation, unless canonically received and sanctioned by the act of the existing government in each state.] I shall vote, most cheerfully, for the motion, as a preliminary step to the constitution of such a committee as appears to me, to be alone competent to enter upon | an adequate examination of these important points, and which, if not fully understood, no act of legislation can be adequately framed; and, whether or not the House shall grant the prayer of the petition, I contend that it will be equally necessary to constitute such a committee of investigation, for it is impossible that the laws, affecting the Roman Catholics, can be permitted to remain in their present state. The acts of 1791 and 1793, are so replete with anomalies and errors, that a revision of them is now become a measure of necessity, rather than of choice. Mr. Yorke said, that he had been misrepresented or misunderstood, by the hon. baronet. He had said, only, that in consequence of the protestation, a difference took place between the vicars apostolic and the Committee, and that the latter were obliged to submit. He had said, also, that three of the vicars apostolic had withdrawn their names from the protestation in consequence of the oath, the form of which had been introduced into it. General Mathew said, it appeared to him, after the very able speech of his hon. and learned countryman and friend (Mr. Plunket,) yesterday, that there was little for him or any one else to add on the subject. That speech, above all he had ever heard or read, afforded the most satisfactory and undeniable historical information on the subject, which probably had ever been given before in this country. He did not believe that ever a speech had been made in that House which so ably proved the right of the Catholics of Ireland to full emancipation. The hon. general, however, differed from his hon. and learned friend in some things. His hon. and learned friend was an advocate for Catholic emancipation, and in that he agreed with him; but he was an advocate for it, granting full and ample securities to the Protestant religion, and in that the hon. general said he differed from his hon. and learned friend. He would ask his hon. and learned friend if he had ever made out, or been able to make out from others, what those securities should be. He himself had often put the question in Ireland, and in England, and could never yet hear in what those securities were to consist. Who was to draw the bond? Who were to sign it? And on whom were the penalties arising from a failure in performance of the conditions of it to fall? He did not see by whom such securities could be given; and he was certain, they ought not to be asked. Nothing, he thought, should be asked of any set of men beyond their oaths. To a man the Catholics of Ireland were willing to take the Oath of Allegiance. That was a powerful oath, and, if they broke it, they would break any oath the legislature could put to them. to them. His hon. and learned friend then stated what he thought should be the provisions for the Catholic clergy. This subject had been discussed again and again, and the Catholic bishops had determined that their clergy should take no payments but from their own flocks. He was of opinion they ought not to be paid by the public, nor should they if they wished it. Far be it from him to say how bishoprics were acquired; all he knew was, that the influence arising from the right to confer them was great, and, if in addition to the English and Irish bishoprics, the Catholic were placed at the back of them, government would soon become despotic. If the Catholics were to concede the right of Veto, he hoped the denomination of Vetomen would be applied to them; they would deserve it. He felt it to be his duty to take his humble share in the present discussion. His duty naturally imposed it on him, feeling as he did, that the welfare of his native country required the removal of all religious disabilities and distinctions; by which every man might be at liberty to make his peace with the Almighty in his own way, and be taught to do to others as he would wish others to do to him. On a system of conciliation, and on a speedy concession of the points in dispute, he had long been convinced depended the peace and happiness, not of Ireland, but of England also, and the security and integrity of the British empire. The hon. member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes) had told the House that concession to the Catholics would endanger the established religion and the established government. Oh, matchless ignorance! oh, matchless intolerance! nine tenths of the property, as well as of the numerical force and ability of Ireland were favourable to the Catholic claims. All parties, indeed, were favourable to Catholic emancipation except the government, which was now viewed in Ireland with that contempt which it deserved. Its acts exhibited one continued scene of bigotry and intolerance from one year's end to the other; and the people of Ireland had now begun to see the folly and criminality of excluding from their natural right five millions of their fellow-citizens, for the sake of exalting a few who were already too highly and unduly exalted, at the expence of the equally undue degradation of the great body of the people. The greatest part of the petitions which had been presented against the Catholic claims had been carried through in a clandestine manner, in a manner very different indeed from that in which the petitions in favour of the Catholics had been agreed to; particularly the petition which he himself had presented from Tipperary. A great deal had been said by an hon. gentleman on the floor (Mr. Bankes), as to the intemperance of the Catholic board. This, for the sake of argument, he should admit; and also, if the hon. gentleman chose it, that those same persons were likely to become factious demagogues, And supposing that to be so, what, be would ask, was the best remedy to apply? Why, to take from them the tools by which alone they could do mischief! make every one of those five millions of persons happy and they would be content: let them continue aggrieved and they would continue discontented. He denied, however, that the hon. gentleman was correct in his statement as to the conduct of the Catholic board. They might have been violent, but they had never been unconstitutional. Of this he could give the best possible proof. The Attorney-General and the minions of the Castle had been constantly watching over them like vultures, ready to pounce on them, had the smallest pretence for so doing presented itself, but they could find none. In his opinion they had not gone far enough. Had they not petitioned that House year after year, in the most res pectful terms; constantly asking as a boon what they might have demanded as a right? The hon. gentleman seemed happy in finding that there were gentlemen in that House ready to go the length of asserting the right of the Catholics to what they now claimed. He was one of those who cheered the hon. gentleman on that occasion, and he should now prove the existence of such right; in the first place, stating that he had recommended it to the Catholics of the county of Tipperary to ask what they applied for as a right, but that he could only get them to ask it as a boon. He contended, that if it were only for the late important victories gained by our armies, principally composed of Irish Catholics, they were entitled to the community of rights for which they now applied. Ireland at present furnished a greater proportion towards the defence of the empire than England did, and yet England continued to keep her best defenders in a state of slavery, and ruled over the fertile and beautiful country of Ireland with a rod of iron. In proportion as a government required to use the bayonet to controul the people, in the same proportion must there be something bad in the system. If the Catholics were cordially united to this country, by feeling a community of interest in her welfare, the country would indeed, be rendered powerful, and we should no longer need to have recourse to foreign defenders, contrary to the enactments in that great palladium of our liberties, Magna Charta. Neither should we any longer be forced to continue that disgraceful system of forcing men on board our fleets against their will, never probably to return. He would tell the House how to get rid of the impress service at once. Govern Ireland by conciliation and affection. Begin by forming registers of births, by the foundation of parish To prove that the Catholics had a right schools, and the formation of depots for to what they now asked, he begged to male children, one of whom would be wil-remind gentlemen that king James did lingly granted out of each family, and in this way, and by the bestowing of moderate bounties, twice as many men would in a few years be produced, as would be required for our navy, and for our army also, without the assistance of Germans, Prussians, or Hanoverians. Not one man in twenty of those who were formerly procured for the army in Ireland could now be persuaded to enlist, and the reason was obvious. They were now beginning to be more enlightened, and of course felt more heavily their degraded state. not abdicate his Irish throne at the same time that he abdicated his English throne, After the battle of the Boyne, the Irish army retired to Limerick, where the treaty of Limerick was concluded between them and lord Athlone, on the part of king William, in the year 1691, by whom it was afterwards ratified. By this treaty it was stipulated that the Catholics and the people of Ireland should possess every advantage and privilege ever possessed by any of his Majesty's loyal subjects; and, shameful to tell, that sacred treaty was them a reward they had toiled so arduously to obtain. He wished them to obtain every privilege which could with safety be granted them, and nothing more; and he wished the conduct of the legislature and the government towards them to be on all occasions such as would, by liberality on the one part, beget confidence on the other. broken through by an act passed by the English parliament in the 4th year of the same king's reign, an act which at this moment remained a record of most disgraceful perjury, to which, till it was removed, the government of this country must continue to be parties. This was his opinion as to the rights of the Catholics, an opinion which must remain unchanged, as he had now little expectation of ever learning the English language better than he already did. Sir Eyre Coote said, he would not trespass on the time of the House by dilating on a question in its more general bearings, so much better understood by many persons in the House than he pretended to understand it; but in the capacity of a mili ary man, he could not forbear offering a few observations on it, as it was connected with military affairs. He could not conceive from any thing with which his experience had made him acquainted, that there was any danger in admitting the Catholics to stations of rank and command in the army; their loyalty was known; the proofs of it were innumerable: and from them he would select a few prominent features sufficient in themselves to do away any jealousy that might be felt with respect to their views and wishes. He recollected, when in the year 1793, the expedition sailed from Ireland for the West Indies, which was commanded by that skilful and gallant officer sir Charles Grey, than whom no man ever deserved better of his country-a man, who was equally eminent in the field and the cabinet-that officer had uniformly praised the conduct of the Irish troops, which formed a considerable part of his force, and had attributed principally to their valour the important conquests he had effected; now two-thirds of these Irish soldiers were Catholics. A number of Irish Catholics also served in Egypt under generals sir Ralph Abercromby and lord Hutchinson, and most materially contributed to the important successes which had been gained there; they had fought in numbers and with their wonted gallantry in Holland, and were now fighting in the peninsula. When he looked, then, at the devoted zeal with which these people were ever ready to shed their blood in defence of their country, or for the augmentation of her glory, he did not feel himself justified in voting against a Committee which was to inquire whether that country could with safety confer on Sir Nicholas Colthurst, in a maiden speech, said :-Mr. Speaker, I trust I shall be excused from trespassing upon the patience of the House, in shortly stating the reasons which induce me to give my vote in favour of going into a committee. Every one must, I think, be aware that the question, now offered to be submitted to your consideration, is one most deeply interesting to the welfare, most important to the interests, of Ireland, and consequently to those of the empire. In this point, at least, all parties are agreed; all are aware of its importance, though they differ as to its merits. As such, Sir, it justly challenges every consideration, every attention, which the legislature can bestow upon it; that, whatever may be the ultimate decision, whatever the result, it may be one, which has been matured by deliberation, and cor rected by inquiry. It was with this view of the subject, with this impression of its importance, and from a laudable anxiety to fulfil the first duty of legislators, by an ample investigation of the complaints of their petitioners, that the late House of Commons entered into that Resolution which is recorded on their Journals. With this view, they bound themselves by a pledge which, had not their existence been terminated by the election of the present parliament, they would now have been called upon to redeem. That such a pledge is binding upon their successors, certainly cannot be asserted; but I maintain, that, while the circumstances of the case remain the same, while the same importance attaches itself to the question, the present House are equally bound to entertain and deliberate upon, the measure. I trust that they will do so, that they will follow the precedent set before them by their predecessors, and show an anxious disposition at least, to promote that final and conciliatory adjustment, which every well-wisher to his country, every one who regards the unanimity of his fellow subjects as the best safeguard of the constitution, must look forward to, with anxiety and satisfaction. I think it is the bounden duty of parliament to shew |