industries, I do not know, but it is much under the average W. P. A.

age.

sir.

Senator THOMAS. Is it not a fact that before any man could get a job in any established job today he must first undergo an examination almost as strict as if he were going into the Air Corps? Mr. HUNTER. That is certainly true of the defense industries; yes, Senator THOMAS. There are a lot of apparently able-bodied men and comparatively young, too, yet they cannot get a job because of some defect that does not appear on the surface, and the only way they can get a job is by doing this temporary work refered to by Senator Holman or get a job on the W. P. A. Is that not true? Mr. HUNTER. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator THOMAS. Now, the fact that they cannot get jobs in permanent industry and the fact that they are more or less incapacitated to get a job is the reason they cannot get a job, and if they cannot find work, temporary or otherwise, what is going to happen to them, save getting on the W. P. A.?

Mr. HUNTER. The only recourse. is local relief, where it is available, or surplus commodities; just hand-outs. I frankly can't answer the question as to how the man who does not get any relief of any kind gets along except that statistics on public health show a terrific breakdown in health in families. The poor generally find someone to take care of the neighbors who are starving to death, but they obviously do not do it very well. On the other hand, a great deal of this job-finding at the moment is controlled a lot by the concentration of where these jobs are. I mean the fact that new jobs open up in the aircraft industry does not affect anybody who does not live in California or other isolated cases.

REEMPLOYMENT ON W. P. A. OF THOSE TAKING PRIVATE EMPLOYMENT

Senator BROOKS. Mr. Hunter, you said, under the law, now anyone leaving the W. P. A. to accept temporary employment has a preference in being put back on at the expiration of that time.

Mr. HUNTER. He not only has a preference, but we are required to put him back immediately.

Senator HOLMAN. May I inquire how long that has been in effect? Mr. HUNTER. Three years, at least. And that was put in there for the very reason you brought out: that a great many workers felt that they would not get a chance to get back if they lost their job.

Senator HOLMAN. I have had actual experience where that excuse was given.

Senator OVERTON. But there are still a great many who are on W. P. A., I think, and if they accept a temporary job they are going to have a difficult time getting back on W. P. A.

Mr. HUNTER. I suppose there may be some, but I think it has been pretty well advertised for the last 3 years, and it has been part of the instruction given to every worker of the W. P. A. periodically. Senator OVERTON. Is it religiously carried into execution?

Mr. HUNTER. Yes, sir. It is posted on every project bulletin board continuously.

EFFORT MADE TO AID THOSE ON W. P. A. ROLLS TO FIND PRIVATE EMPLOYMENT

Of course, we help as much as we can to locate jobs and establish contact between the W. P. A. worker and the jobs that we know are open. I am frank to say that we have been handicapped to some extent in that direction in the past. With no criticism of any other agencies, previously we were required to have every worker register through the public employment service and get the job through a public employment office.

Senator ADAMS. You are required to keep that registration fresh? Mr. HUNTER. Yes; and we are actually ordering our State and local administrators that when they find a plant or business that is increasing employment to get in touch with them and get them to get in touch with our people direct. You see, our people working on a project do not have a chance to run up to the factory gate when they put out the sign, "Men Wanted," because they are working on the project, and we depended previously on the chance that the employment office would get our men into the jobs. For one reason, the employment offices have nearly always counted the W. P. A. men as employed. If they go to an Illinois employment. office, for example, and ask for a job, the employment office won't refer their names because they figure they are employed. But we go to the employees direct now. Över 95 percent of the W. P. A. workers who have gotten private jobs have gotten them directly or by our help rather than through the employment office.

WORK PERFORMED BY W. P. A. WORKERS

Senator THOMAS. For the past several years no doubt you have heard a lot of fun made of W. P. A. workers-at least I have. The complaint is that they do not do physical work, that they lean on their shovels, and that they stand around and do anything they can do to keep out of work. No doubt that is largely true, and assuming that it is true, is not the reason for that that these men are underfed, undernourished, and in many cases are unable to do more physical work than they actually perform?

Mr. HUNTER. Senator, I hope you won't mind, but I don't think it is true that they are loafing, because I do think the record of buildings and roads constructed speaks for itself.

Senator HOLMAN. I take issue with that, you know. I have seen that at places where gangs of men were working and have stopped and counted the number of men, and they were not functioning at all.

Mr. HUNTER. If that is true, I assume it was when we were overcrowded, but I put the blame on administration rather than the worker, because often we have in the past, in 1939, for instance, when we had 3,000,000 people, had certain projects that had more men on them than we were able to furnish tools and equipment for, and I blame the administration rather than the workers, because I don't believe our percentage of loafers is any greater than in private industry or any other line of work.

Senator HOLMAN. If that were done in private industry, the sheriff would have a padlock on the door.

Mr. HUNTER. I think the results of the works speak better for the W. P. A. worker than anything else.

Senator HOLMAN. Regardless of the cost of doing it?

Mr. HUNTER. I don't think the cost is excessive for the projects. I am willing to compare our costs on projects with anybody's; would be glad to.

Senator HOLMAN. That is nonsense. Did you ever operate a business?

Mr. HUNTER. No; but I know costs, Senator.

Senator HOLMAN. I say did you ever meet a pay

Mr. HUNTER. No, sir.

roll?

Senator HOLMAN. Then you would not talk like that if

you did. Mr. HUNTER. I think you can take cost figures that speak for themselves on that. I would be glad to have testimony from agencies who sponsor these projects, which is the best testimony, and from both Army and Navy officials.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator THOMAS. If a man is over age, it is obvious he could not do the work that a young man can do. When I see a man standing around, leaning on a shovel, there may be three reasons for it. He may be lazy, he may be underfed, or he may be too old.

Mr. HUNTER. The other part of this question about nutrition and health is quite true in many parts of the country and has been in the past. I think we have taken people on the W. P. A. who for several months previous to their employment by us didn't get sufficient food or money to live on, and until a considerable time after they were hired by the W. P. A. they couldn't put out a full day's work.

PROVISIONS PROHIBITING EMPLOYMENT OF THOSE ADVOCATING OVERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT, ALIENS, COMMUNISTS, AND MEMBERS OF NAZI BUND ORGANIZATIONS

Senator ADAMS. Senator Overton, may I ask you to take note of this? On page 19 of the bill we have the Overton amendment, which provides for the penalty provision for the acceptance of salary by any person who is a member of an organization that advocates the overthrow of the Government by force or violence. On page 17, subsection (e), is a provision to the effect that no alien, Communist, or member of any Nazi bund organization shall be given employment. Now, there is no penalty provision attached to that, and the suggestion has been made that in some way these two sections ought to be synchronized and a penalty provided for under this section on page 17. Now, you are an expert on that matter, and I would like to get your advice.

Senator OVERTON. Mr. Chairman, my ultimate thought in preparing this amendment, to which you kindly refer to as the Overton amendment, was that we ought not to exclude men from work on W. P. A. or personnel in the employ of the Government by reference to any particular name, such as Nazi or Communist, but by a general designation such as "those who advocate the overthrow of the Government by force or violence or who belong to an organization or are affiliated with organizations that do advocate the overthrow of the Government by force or violence." Now, if Nazis or Communists or any

325310-41- -5

body else comes in that category, he ought to be excluded and is excluded. Now, what is a Nazi? I might ask Mr. Hunter that. Mr. HUNTER. I don't know, sir.

Senator OVERTON. What is a Nazi? How are you going to exclude a Nazi? Before you can exclude him, you have got to determine what a Nazi is.

Mr. HUNTER. That is right. The only way we can exclude him under this language is to determine whether he is a member of the so-called Nazi bund.

Senator ADAMS. That is an organization.

Mr. HUNTER. That is right. That is an organization limited to this particular section.

Senator ADAMS. On page 17 is the section that applies to aliens. You have aliens included under the language on page 17 and not under that on page 19.

Senator OVERTON. Yes. Who is a Communist? Is a Communist one who advocates the overthrow of the Government by force or violence?

Mr. HUNTER. Not necessarily. There would be other people who are not Communists.

Senator OVERTON. Do all Communists advocate the overthrow of the Government?

Mr. HUNTER. Well, I doubt that.

Senator OVERTON. My thought is whether this provision against the employment of anyone who advocates the overthrow of the Government is not in itself sufficient. Should we go further and include members of Nazi bund organizations and Communists by name?

Mr. HUNTER. I am rather in accord with this. If we had a provision

in here

Senator OVERTON. I am just asking from an administrative standpoint.

Mr. HUNTER. Well, it is difficult for us to prove whether a man is a Communist or whether he is guilty of subversive activities.

Senator OVERTON. If we do retain this provision on page 17 with reference to "no alien and no Communist, and so forth," there should be an additional provision in another amendment, and that is that an affidavit would make prima facie evidence of his status, and if he does accept W. P. A. employment in this particular case and is a Nazi or Communist or an alien, or whatever we put in there, then he would be subject to a penalty.

Mr. HUNTER. I would recommend combining this section on page 17 with the one on page 19 just as they are.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator OVERTON. Have you any data to show how many have been excluded?

Mr. HUNTER. Yes; we have the exact number we have discharged for Nazi and Communist activities.

Senator OVERTON. That is in the House hearings?

Mr. HUNTER. Yes, sir.

Senator ADAMS. Are there any other questions?

Senator HOLMAN. Should not the Administrator have authority to dismiss anyone that is a troublemaker or an agitator just on his own?

Mr. HUNTER. Yes; we do it administratively, without the authority. We find the authority to do it, anyway.

Senator HOLMAN. Well, I think you should have the authority. (Discussion off the record.)

Senator ADAMS. Any other questions?

Senator BROOKS. As I understand it, you do not want that provision that was adopted in the House on the veterans' monthly earnings proposition?

Mr. HUNTER. No, sir.

Senator BROOKS. They did eliminate the rotation part in the House?

AMENDMENT OFFERED BY SENATOR BILBO RELATIVE TO DISPOSAL OF SURPLUS COMMODITIES

Mr. HUNTER. Yes, sir. Is it permissible for me to speak about Senator Bilbo's amendment?

Senator ADAMS. We would be very glad to have you.

Mr. HUNTER. We are very much in accord with the food-stamp plan and the surplus commodities. I didn't have an opportunity to testify in the House on this because this amendment came after my testimony, but if money is added for the food-stamp plan, I hope it will be added to rather than taken away from the W. P. A., because it will have no value to the W. P. A. to employ people if it is deducted from the $875,000,000. It is a very valuable contribution, I think, however, to the health of the people of the country.

Senator ADAMS. Has any other member of your staff anything to suggest? If not, we are very much obliged to you. If something occurs to us later, we may call you.

Mr. HUNTER. Thank you.

Senator ADAMS. Mr. Hunter, we are going to try to move expeditiously in this matter, and I know you want us to do so, because you spoke to me about it. If you want to correct your testimony you can, but it is not available to revise it but to draw the distinction between correction and revision. You have had experience in the past? Mr. HUNTER. Yes.

Senator ADAMS. I want to put in the record a letter from Senator Nye, to which he attaches a telegram to him from John Moses, the Governor of North Dakota, and a statement also accompanying it.

LETTER AND ENCLOSURES FROM SENATOR NYE

(The correspondence referred to above follows:)

Hon. ALVA B. ADAMS,

JUNE 11, 1941.

United States Senate, Washington, D. C. DEAR SENATOR ADAMS: Since I shall probably not be able to be with you when hearings are conducted on the relief bill, I should like very much if you would make certain representation for me when the hearings are undertaken.

I am enclosing, herewith, the report submitted to me by the State administrator, Thomas H. Moodie, of North Dakota. The report is a splendid one in that it very clearly portrays what is the continuing need in North Dakota for Work Projects Administration help.

I wish that before this report is submitted for the record you would pass it to whoever appears for Work Projects Administration in the hearings