FRIDAY, JULY 20, 1973 U.S. SENATE, SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN ACTIVITIES, in room Washington, D.C. The Select Committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:05 a.m., 318, Russell Senate Office Building, Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., (chairman), presiding. Present: Senators Ervin, Talmadge, Inouye, Montoya, Baker, Gurney, and Weicker. Also present: Samuel Dash, chief counsel and staff director; Fred D. Thompson, minority counsel; Rufus L. Edmisten, deputy chief counsel; Arthur S. Miller, chief consultant; Jed Johnson, consultant; David M. Dorsen, James Hamilton, and Terry F. Lenzner, assistant chief counsels; R. Phillip Haire, Marc Lackritz, William T. Mayton, Ronald D. Rotunda, and Barry Schochet, assistant majority counsels; Eugene Boyce, hearings record counsel; Donald G. Sanders, deputy minority counsel; Howard S. Liebengood, H. William Shure, and Robert Silverstein, assistant minority counsels; Pauline O. Dement, research assistant; Eiler Ravnholt, office of Senator Inouye; Robert Baca, office of Senator Montoya; Ron McMahan, assistant to Senator Baker; A. Searle Field, assistant to Senator Weicker; Michael Flanigan, assistant publications clerk. Senator ERVIN. The committee will come to order. Senator Baker. Senator BAKER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you will not mind, and I am sure the witness will not mind, if I inject a brief note of levity this morning. After our sad experience with the hoax, the phone call yesterday, I overheard the press corps remark that the real Alex Butterfield is in Tiajuana-bound in tape. Senator ERVIN. I would just like to say, to quote the scriptures again, it is stated in the Book of Proverbs that a merry heart, such as that Senator Baker possesses, doeth good like a medicine. Senator BAKER. It is bad medicine. Mr. Mardian, you have gone over your testimony, as other witnesses have, at great length, and there has been an exhaustive examination by counsel for the committee and members of the committee, and I am today going to limit my questions fairly severely and try to impose on myself about a 10-minute rule without suggesting to committee members that we invoke any such rule. I intend to do that just for the sake of trying to move through the testimony. It is clear, Mr. Mardian, that there are certain essential conflicts in your testimony and that of Mr. Dean. There are other apparent conflicts between your testimony and that of Mr. Stans. Let us talk about the Dean testimony for a moment. Do you have any idea when you last talked to Mr. Dean and about what and, more particularly, do you have any recollection of having discussed your testimony or his testimony that would be given before this committee? TESTIMONY OF ROBERT C. MARDIAN-Resumed Mr. MARDIAN. I do not know that I have talked to John Dean since I left Washington on November 10. It is possible I saw him during the inaugural ceremonies but I have not discussed with him my testimony nor he his testimony with me. Senator BAKER. Have you read the opening statement that Mr. Dean filed with and read to the committee? Mr. MARDIAN. I believe that I read—I do not think I read the entire transcript but I may have. It has been some time. Senator BAKER. Are there any other points in the Dean testimony or the Magruder testimony or the Stans testimony that you feel do not portray an event in the same way that you recall it? You have identified some but, based on your information about those witnesses' testimony, are there any other important, significant events in which you have a different or contrary view? Mr. MARDIAN. I would have to go over his testimony and his opening statement. Senator BAKER. There are none that come to mind at the moment as being particularly significant or outstanding? Mr. MARDIAN. Not that I can think of. There may be some significant ones. Senator BAKER. Rather than ask you to go over that testimony now, for the opening statement of Mr. Dean, of course, was over 240 pages, and the Magruder testimony was rather extensive, as was the Stans testimony, would you be agreeable, Mr. Mardian, to reviewing those three pieces of testimony and the testimony of Mr. Mitchell, that would make four, and note for this record in a letter later any other important and significant discrepancies in that they do not accord with your recollection of events about which you have knowledge? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, if I am furnished with transcripts. I do not have them, I do not believe. Senator BAKER. Would you be agreeable to returning if necessary, to expound further on any such points of conflict? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that a copy of the testimony of Mr. Dean, Mr. Magruder, Mr. Stans and Mr. Mitchell be supplied to the witness, and that he may be permitted to supply to the committee as a late filed exhibit any such notations as he pleases with the understanding that the committee may ask him to return and Mr. LaRue, the five. Senator ERVIN. Without objection on the part of any member of the committee, the staff will comply with the request of the vice chairman. Senator BAKER. I am not placing any time limitation on that. Mr. Mardian, but obviously, we want to move as fast as we reasonably can, so if you can supply that information as promptly as you can we would be grateful and you need not complete it before you send any particular portions of it. You can send it as you do complete it, and the staff will work out with you the details on how that should be done. Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. While you were at the Justice Department, Mr. Mardian, did you have any dealings with Mr. Liddy? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes. Senator BAKER. Are you aware of the so-called Plumbers operation at the White House in which Mr. Liddy was apparently involved? Mr. MARDIAN. I was not aware of the Plumbers operation until after the Watergate break-in and I recall a reporter from Time magazine, I believe, who asked me if I was aware of the Plumbers and I said I did not-I was not aware of them, had not heard the word and he said, "You must have, they had a sign on the door called the Plumbers," and I said, "Well, I did not go by that door." Senator BAKER. But you were not aware of the term, "the Plumbers," or of the function of that group within the White House while you were at Justice or prior to the events in which they were engaged? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir. Senator BAKER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Liddy about anything that you now identify as being part of the Plumbers operation? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir. My first meeting with Mr. Liddy, and I don't think I was aware that he was Mr. Liddy at the time, was when I arbitrated a treaty between the Justice Department, the FBI, and the Alcholol, Tobacco, and Firearms Division and the staffs of the two agencies, the bureau of the agency came to my office, and because of the conflict in jurisdiction over the bombing statute that had been enacted where Congress gave joint investigative jurisdiction to the Bureau and the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Division that it resulted in sort of a jurisdictional dispute. Mr. Sullivan was a friend of mine, Mr. Rossides was a friend of mine and they made me aware of the conflict. I suggested they come to my office or they suggested it, I don't know, but we sat down over a period of a day or two and worked out a 6-month agreement which we had called a treaty, whereby they would try to operate under, to divide up the types of cases each would investigate. Mr. Liddy was a part of that group, as I recall. Senator BAKER. Did you have dealings with Mr. Liddy in that connection? Mr. MARDIAN. I don't think so. My dealings were mainly with Mr. Rossides Secretary Rossides and Mr. Sullivan, who was then the Associate Director of the FBI. Senator BAKER. Were you at that time Assistant Attorney General for Internal Security Affairs? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Gray or with his predecessor, Mr. Hoover, about any matter relevant to this inquiry? Mr. MARDIAN. To this inquiry? Senator BAKER. Yes, sir. Mr. Mardian, I note that Mr. Dean states that, I believe in an executive session, I am not sure it was discussed fully in the public record, but on June 16, 1973, I believe Mr. Dean said that you, Mr. Parkinson, O'Brien, and Chapin and Strachan went over certain FBI reports and that you were critical of the FBI or the so-called Gray investigation? Mr. MARDIAN. I have no recollection of ever meeting with Mr. Strachan. I told the committee staff that I was aware that Mr. Dean did have FBI report. The only document that I am aware of, it was either shown to me or read to me and I believe it was read to me by Mr. Dean and it was an FBI teletype from Mr. Gray to, I believe, all of the FBI offices in connection with the investigation of Watergate. Senator BAKER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Hoover while you were Assistant Attorney General for Internal Security? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Did you ever talk to him about the Plumbers group or internal security functions being carried on by the White House? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir. Senator BAKER. Did you ever talk to him about the White House staff and their relationship to the FBI or the Department of Justice? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Senator BAKER. Did he ever talk to you? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir. If Mr. Hoover had been aware of the Plumbers I think we would have heard about it. group Senator BAKER. Were you aware that at one time there was a good bit of talk about Mr. Hoover retiring or resigning as director? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes. Senator BAKER. Did you have any personal knowledge or conversation with Mr. Hoover about that situation? Mr. MARDIAN. No, sir. Senator BAKER. Did you have any idea why the White House did take over some of what I would consider internal security operations instead of leaving it in your department or with the FBI? Mr. MARDIAN. It would be pure speculation. Senator BAKER. You have no basis for knowledge or basis of knowledge. Mr. MARDIAN. It would be pure speculation on my part, Senator. Senator BAKER. Would you care to speculate? If you prefer not to it is all right, but if you would care to I would be happy to have it as long as that speculation is based on your perception of the attitude, relationships, or any facts known to you. If you think that would be helpful to the record we would be happy to have it. Mr. MARDIAN. I can only say that he apparently lacked confidence in our ability to do the job. Senator BAKER. Our ability, meaning the Justice Department ability? Mr. MARDIAN. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Meaning the Internal Security Division, the Federal Bureau of Investigation? Mr. MARDIAN. Well, if it fell within the gamut of the Internal Security Division, yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Do you have any reason to think there was a lack of confidence that led the White House to take independent action? Mr. MARDIAN. Well, that is the basis of my speculation. I can't think of any other reason for creating such a group. Senator BAKER. Did anybody ever tell you that or intimate that or did you infer that from any other facts or circumstances at the time? Mr. MARDIAN. I am only inferring that from the revelations that have come out now. We had an FBI, a good FBI; we had a good |