he had something to report. When I found out that he was still on the had this connection with the Agency at the time of this break-in, he was cut off.

Mr. THOMPSON. When was he cut off?

Mr. HELMS. Right after we had discovered that he was involved in the break-in.

Mr. THOMPSON. You mean Martinez was on retainer by the CIA at the time of the break-in?

Mr. HELMS. That is right. But in Florida, for the purpose I have identified.

Mr. THOMPSON. I beg your pardon. In Florida—I didn't understand that last statement.

Mr. HELMS. Mr. Martinez was the resident in Florida as far as the Agency knew. Because he lived in Florida and because he was a Cuban exile, he was kept on a loose arrangement whereby he would report to the Agency from time to time Cubans who got out of Cuba either legally or illegally whom he thought might have some information that would be useful to the U.S. Government and then he would report in and give the name of this individual.

Mr. THOMPSON. When was he taken off retainer by the CIA?

Mr. HELMS. When it was ascertained that he was involved in the break-in, he was taken off right then.

Mr. THOMPSON. When was it ascertained that he was involved in the break-in?

Mr. HELMS. Well, I assume when his name was given to us by the FBI, which was the-I imagine within 24 hours or 48 hours or 72 hours after the break-in.

Mr. THOMPSON. How was this done? Did the CIA communicate with Mr. Martinez; was there any paperwork involved?

Mr. HELMS. I do not recall the precise details of the way it was done. There are many people in the Agency who could tell you-it may even be in your record-the Agency has been most cooperative in turning over lots of written material about these various matters and I imagine it is in there someplace. I just do not remember.

Mr. THOMPSON. It seems to me, Mr. Helms, that there might well have been concern as to the role of the CIA by all parties involved at this particular time right after the break-in in June of 1972 if, in fact, one of the persons who had broken in was at that time on retainer by the CIA. Did you know at the time of your conversation with Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Ehrlichman on the 23d that Mr. Martinez was in fact on retainer?

Mr. HELMS. I do not recall. I imagine I may have. But that does not mean that the CIA was involved in the burglary.

Mr. THOMPSON. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. HELMS. And I do not think you ought to put words in my mouth. Mr. THOMPSON. I did not think I was. The issue seems to be whether or not there was legitimate concern with regard to either at that time, whether the CIA was involved in the burglary or whether or not other covert CIA activities might be exposed, or whether or not Haldeman and Ehrlichman quite frankly were using this as an excuse to cover up the Watergate investigation which also quite frankly has been widely implied, to say the least. That is what I am trying to get at.

Now, you have already mentioned the fact that you had talked to Patrick Gray and there was some talk besides the people involved in the Watergate break-in; McCord was a former CIA agent; Hunt was a former CIA agent; Martinez was on retainer at the time of the break-in; Sturgis, a former contact, a former employee of the CIA. Also I understand there was some talk about an attorney down there as being a CIA contact, I suppose would be the correct way to put that, would it not?

Mr. HELMS. That was what we were asked, if we had any connection with him.

Mr. THOMPSON. You talked to Mr. Gray, I believe, on June 27 about Mr. Ogarrio down there; did you not?

Mr. HELMS. The FBI asked us if this Mexican lawyer had any connection with the Agency. We conducted an investigation to ascertain whether or not he had, and I reported to Mr. Gray that he had no connection with the Agency; we knew nothing about him.

Mr. THOMPSON. But what I am trying to get at is the 27th-4 days after this meeting-there was still some discussion as to whether or not there was a problem of Mr. Ogarrio. If my notes are correct, Mr. Gray called you about this matter at about 11:30 a.m., and you could not or did not respond immediately. You returned Mr. Gray's call at 3:40 that afternoon, and said that the CIA did not, in fact, have any interest in Mr. Ogarrio; is that your recollection?

Mr. HELMS. That is right. But I want to point out, Mr. Thompson, in case there is any question in your mind that whenever we were initially asked about this Mexican lawyer it would have taken a few days to ascertain this, to be sure about it. We have to check files and records and we would have to check with people in Mexico, and this is not something that would happen from one minute to the next. But I do not recall when the first inquiry was made to us about a man named Ogarrio. I just simply know from the records since I have consulted the record on this point, that I did report this back to Mr. Gray that we had no connection with him, the Agency had no connection with him on June 27. I believe you have documents there in my own handwriting attesting to this..

Mr. THOMPSON. Well, Mr. Helms, in order that we are as clear as we can be on this, I would like to ask you one more time whether, to the best of your independent recollection, Mr. Haldeman did say that the opposition was capitalizing on the Watergate and five men had been arrested, and that was adequate?

Mr. HELMS. I cannot vouch for those exact words. But as I reconstructed this meeting with General Walters and went over it with him, there was some sort of a lead-in or reference at the beginning of the conversation to this burglary.

Mr. THOMPSON. And it was after your sitting there in the same room with General Walters and hearing his testimony that it did, in fact occur, and it was after your reading his memorandum where he stated that it did in fact occur, before you first mentioned yourself that you recalled that it did in fact occur, is that correct?

Mr. HELMS. That is relatively-yes, I am sure, that is good enough

anyway.

Mr. THOMPSON. I have no further questions, thank you.
Senator ERVIN. Senator Montoya.

Senator MONTOYA. I just have two questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Mr. Ambassador, did you know James McCord personally?
Mr. HELMS. Yes, Senator Montoya.

Senator MONTOYA. How long had you known him?

Mr. HELMS. Well, it is hard to tell you when I might have first met him but I saw him from time to time during, let us say, the time that I was Director of the Agency during those 62 years, I recall his having been in my office on two or three occasions on various matters. Senator MONTOYA. What kind of a man was he?

Mr. HELMS. He had a good reputation.

Senator MONTOYA. And what was his reputation for veracity?

Mr. HELMS. I have never had any cause to question Mr. McCord's reputation for veracity.

Senator MONTOYA. Would you say that his reputation as a human being, as a man, as an employee was very good?

Mr. HELMS. Yes, it was. He left a good record behind him.

Senator MONTOYA. And what can you say about Mr. Hunt? Had you known him?

Mr. HELMS. Yes, I did know him.

Senator MONTOYA. What was his reputation?

Mr. HELMS. Well, Mr. Hunt was-had a, well, he had a good reputation, there was some questions at various times during his employment about how well he carried out certain assignments but there was nothing malign about this. It was just a question of his effectiveness. Mr. Hunt was a bit of a romantic, he used to write books in his spare time, and I think there was a tendency sometimes for him to get a little bit carried away with some of the things he was involved in but he had never done anything illegal or nefarious that anybody was aware of and when he left the Agency he left a decent record behind him.

Senator MONTOYA. What would you say about his reputation for veracity?

Mr. HELMS. Well, I have said, sir, that he was a romantic, I think that I just do not have any way of being able to answer that. I would have assumed that in matters of importance he would tell the truth.

Senator MONTOYA. Now, since you spent so much time as Director of CIA, the Agency, what recommendations can you make to this committee concerning new legislation to help prevent the misuse of the Central Intelligence Agency for political or other purposes other than the assigned purposes delineated in the act?

Mr. HELMS. Well, Senator Montoya, I do not know how one legislates these matters. I have never understood how morality and proper conduct and decency can be legislated about. In Washington over the years, there have been many occasions when various people have tried to manipulate some organization or another in an improper way. This is not new to us, we read about it in the papers constantly, but how you legislate about this I swear to you, sir, I do not know.

Senator MONTOYA. Would you say that in view of your experience with respect to this episode there was an attempt by some people to manipulate the Agency and its facilities?

Mr. HELMS. Well, there was no question that there seemed to be an effort to "use it." In quotes. Quote, use it, unquote.

Senator MONTOYA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator ERVIN. Senator Weicker.

Senator WEICKER. Mr. Ambassador, during the period of time from January 20, 1969, until the spring of 1972, January 20, 19

Mr. HELMS. January 20, 1969. I am just trying to fix the date. Senator WEICKER. Right, basically, from the beginning of 1969. Mr. HELMS. From Inauguration Day?

Senator WEICKER. Yes.

Mr. HELMS. I see.

Senator WEICKER. To the spring of 1972, were there occasions when you were contacted by either the Attorney General John Mitchell, or the Deputy Attorney General Robert Mardian?

Mr. HELMS. Well, I used to see Mr. Mitchell quite frequently because Mr. Mitchell had duties given him by the President that had nothing whatever to do with the conduct of the affairs of the Department of Justice, so I saw him with some regularity in meetings in his office on a variety of matters having to do with the affairs of the Agency and with our various operations.

Senator WEICKER. Were there any times when in these contacts with either Mr. Mitchell-I don't recall your having said whether or not had ever met Mr. Mardian or not.

you

Mr. HELMS. I did meet him. I met him one day in Mr. Mitchell's office, as a matter of fact.

Senator WEICKER. Were there any contacts that you had with either Messrs. Mardian or Mitchell where you were asked to bring the CIA into investigations of a domestic nature?

Mr. HELMS. I don't recall any such meetings. I know that the time that I mentioned that I met Mr. Mardian in Mr. Mitchell's office, it is my recollecton that the reason he was there was that he had been put in charge of an internal security operation or division of the Justice Department, and that he was going to get together a group of individuals from the various intelligence organizations to sit with him in an effort to make up some reports and analyses, and so forth, about domestic unrest and things of that kind, but it was always made very clear by me, and I never was challenged by Mr. Mitchell that anything that we contributed to these meetings had to be as a result of our work overseas of material we had developed there which may have some bearing on things in the United States. For example, the Fedayeen, the terrorists, we had been working on them, we had been working on certain people involved in drug smuggling and a variety of things.

Senator WEICKER. But at no time, in other words, or there wasn't any sort of a pattern of requests of trying to bring the CIA into matters that you would consider properly outside the scope of the CIA. I am not questioning your reaction at all.

Mr. HELMS. I don't recall them, Senator Weicker.

Senator WEICKER. Do you recall discussing with the committee staff that you were being pushed into the domestic investigation area? Mr. HELMS. This committee staff?

Senator WEICKER. Yes.

Mr. HELMS. Well, at various times questions come up, well, I remember one time there was a discussion with some of these, the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board about domestic operations, and so forth, and they didn't think they were going satisfactorily and could the Agency make a contribution to this and I pointed out to them

very quickly it could not, there was no way. But this was a matter that kept coming up in the context of feelers, how can we do a better job, isn't there somebody else that can take on some of these things if the FBI isn't doing them as well as they should, are there no other facilities. It was in that context, it was not a direct pressure on me "Go do it." Senator WEICKER. Did you ever consider resigning your position as Director of the CIA because of these types of feelers or indications? Mr. HELMS. No, Senator Weicker, I don't mean to be immodest but I felt that I understood about these matters and these delimitations and I thought I could take care of the Agency better if I stayed where I was.

Senator WEICKER. I gathered from your statement that you have a great pride in the Agency.

Mr. HELMS. I do, sir.

Senator WEICKER. And the only point I am trying to bring out, and let me just relate to your last answer, did you have any concern that if you left the Agency as its Director that it might get into these other types of areas?

Mr. HELMS. Well, I don't know that my thinking ever went quite that far but because I had no reason to suppose that my successor would be a man of inadequate caliber.

Senator WEICKER. But you felt that

Mr. HELMS. I have been around a long time and I thought I understood pretty well what we were supposed to do and not supposed to do, and if there are any sins the Agency has committed they are on my shoulders, I am not palming them off on anybody else. I knew the ground rules and I knew the laws and all the rest of it and I did my very best to keep the Agency free and clean and sailing straight.

Senator WEICKER. And I gather you felt that, you yourself felt that, it would do just that as long as you were excuse the expression— at the helm.

Mr. HELMS. Yes, sir. [Laughter.]

Senator WEICKER. In your meeting with Mr. Haldeman and Mr. Ehrlichman and General Walters and with General Cushman there at that meeting also, the meeting of the 23d.

Mr. HELMS. Yes, sir; as I recall it we were asked to come together by Senator Symington, and General Cushman was sitting on my left and General Walters on my right and we were sitting right together at the table.

Senator WEICKER. Why wouldn't such a request as Mr. Haldeman was making be made to you? You were the Director of the CIA, and the request that was being made was having to do with the Acting Director of the FBI, so why not talk to you? Were you being talked around here? I would like to get your impression.

Mr. HELMS. Yes, I was being talked around, and this-I don't know exactly in what form this came up but I was assured that it had been decided that General Walters was to do the talking and obviously I wondered at the time as to why.

Senator WEICKER. Did you express any-did you make any comment at the time?

Mr. HELMS. Saying that he shouldn't do it, that I should do it? Senator WEICKER. No; that, you know turning to Mr. Haldeman,