1 H OF R.] Public Debt. amendments depending between the two Houses, on the bill providing for the settlement of accounts between the United States and the individual States, reported certain amendments that it would be proper to make in the said bill; the House took the report into consideration, and agreed to the same with a small alteration. A message was received from the Senate, that they had passed the funding bill, with sundry amendments, which amendments were made the order of the day for to-morrow. THURSDAY, July 22. COASTING TRADE. Mr. GOODHUE, from the committee appointed for the purpose, presented a bill for registering ships or vessels, for regulating those employed in the coasting trade and fisheries, and for other purposes, which was twice read and committed. The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, covering his report for a uniform system for the disposition of lands, the property of the United States, made pursuant to an order of the House of the 20th of January last, which were read and ordered to lie on the table. GENERAL POST-OFFICE. Mr. GERRY, from the Managers appointed on the part of this House to attend a conference with the Senate on the subject-matter of the amendments depending between the two Houses to the bill to establish the Post-office and post roads within the United States, made a report. The first amendment of the Senate the committee on the part of the House did not agree to. This amendment was to invest the Postmaster General with the power to establish the cross post roads. Mr. HARTLEY moved that the House should adhere to their disagreement; this was seconded by Mr. BLOODWORTH. A considerable debate ensued on this motion, which was finally carried in the affirmative, the yeas and nays being as follows: YEAS.-Messrs. Ashe, Baldwin, Bloodworth, Brown, Burke, Clymer, Coles, Contee, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Gale, Gerry, Griffin, Hartley, Heister, Huntington, Jackson, Livermore, Madison, Matthews, Muhlenberg, Page, Parker, Scott, Seney, Sevier, Sherman, Sylvester, Steele, Stone, Sturges, Sumter, Tucker, Vining, White.-35. NAYS.-Messrs. Ames, Benson, Boudinot, Cadwallader, Foster, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Lawrence, Leonard, Partridge, Rensselaer, Schureman, Sedgwick, Smith, of Maryland, Smith, of South Carolina, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth, Wynkoop.-20. The other amendments were agreed to. The House then took up the amendments of the Senate to the funding bill, and made some progress therein. [JULY 23, 1790. On motion of Mr. GERRY, the interest on Indents was raised from three to four per cent. per annum. The term of ten years," the proposed period at which one-third of the principal was to be funded, was altered to seven years. These, with the rate of redemption, at eight dollars per annum on account of principal and interest, which the Senate proposed should be at seven dollars per annum, were all the alterations made by the House this day. On the proposition for the assumption of the State debts being read, Mr. JACKSON moved that the amendment of the Senate respecting the assumption of the State debts should be disagreed to. In support of his motion, he said it is with great reluctance I rise again on the question before the House-a measure which has not only agitated this Legislature, but has more or less convulsed the whole people of the United States. It has elated speculators and State brokers, whilst it has depressed three-fourths of the honest part of the community. It has held out alluring prospects and fortunes to the one, whilst it has blasted and withered the just expectations of the other. It has, in short, been the centre-pin of visionary projectors and interested men, whilst its future effects have been viewed with horror by disinterested minds. To give a history of this important question, (for important, however wicked, it certainly is,) would be to tax Congress with the most extreme inconsistencies. Repeatedly has the question been decided, and repeatedly negatived; and as the principle was first originated without reference, the same stubborn disposition is manifest, notwithstanding the repeated determinations of the House. The forms of Proteus have been assumed, and the forms of Proteus have been defeated here; but a new shape is not still wanting to aid the perseverance of the East. The Senate of the United States, a power not known to, nor chosen by, the people, have undertaken to load the citizens of the United States with an enormous debt. I will not appeal to the passions; but I call on the House, as the Representatives of the people, as the guardians of their liberties, to resist this encroachment on their constitutional rights; they will expect it, and if the principle is established at present, there is no knowing to what length it may be carried in future. As well might the Senate, under color of an amendment, have inserted the whole funding system in an appropriation bill, as have inserted this new principle in the bill before the House. It may be advanced that it is no money bill, that there are no ways and means, no taxes or burthens imposed on the people. To interested men, and persons who would not look beyond the surface, this reasoning might appear just; but I would ask, if the taxes and burthens, the ways and means, must not follow-pass this JULY 23, 1790.] Public Debt. principle in the bill, and the public faith is bound; neglect to provide for it, and you lay the Government open to insult. But setting this encroachment of the Senate from our view for the present moment, I have no objection to consider the question on its own merits. Nothing which I have yet heard has convinced me of its propriety. The accumulation of an immense debt ought to be founded in more than perseverance for its basis; it ought to have justice for its groundwork, and policy for its superstructure. [H. OF R. an excess of 746,153 dollars, where she has not asked it, and where the State and her Representatives are averse to the measure. What, sir, I will ask, is this for? Is it by way of gift or douceur? I know her Representatives to be too honest, too steady to their trust to be bribed. Georgia and New Hampshire are, however, not the only States which will suffer; New York and Maryland will likewise be injured. The former is to receive 1,200,000 dollars; her just quota would be 1,904,615 dollars; there will be a deficiency, therefore, of 784,615 dollars. The deficiency of Maryland is much greater, she is to receive but 800,000 dollars, and the deficiency from the amount of her just quota will be 1,184,615 dollars. One State, Pennsylvania, has a million allowed her above the amount of her debt. So that some of the States are to be doubly, and some trebly taxed, for the benefit of others. I will here, sir, appeal to the same moral sense with the gentleIf this assumption had taken place at the man from Massachusetts, (Mr. AMES,) to the conclusion of the war, the principle would have same rectitude of the heart, and I will confibeen more just than at present, because then dently demand from him if you can impose this none of the States had made exertions to re-burthen on the States and call it equality; if lieve themselves from debt, and they were you can adopt the assumption and call it jusnearer on an equality; but even then it would tice. not have been on perfect terms of justice; the situations of the State, and their charges, were not the same. The question of justice has been subservient to both sides of the House; but the great rules, the leading features of justice, have not been answered, if they have been attempted. Where, I again demand, is the justice of compelling a State which has taxed her citizens for the sinking of her debt, to pay another proportion, not of her own, but the debts of other States, which have made no exertions whatever? I consider the State which made exertions, as I mentioned on a former day, to have paid off so much of its proportion of these debts, whether called the debts of the States or the debts of the Union. If State debts, no State ought to pay the debts of other States; if they are the debts of the Union, then has the State which has exerted itself and paid off its own debt, contributed its proportion, and ought not to pay a second time. A gentleman from Connecticut has analyzed the argument in favor of the measure. As I But, sir, suppose the accounts settled at the close of the war, how would the expenses of the war have been proportioned? Not agreeably to the present ratio of representation will be allowed me. How then? Why, by the ratio of existing requisitions, or nearly so, and Georgia would have paid the one-ninetieth part of the whole debt; whereas, at present, she is bound for the one twenty-second part. But now, sir, even the ratio of representation is to be over-think them of as much weight as any that have leaped by the present scheme of the assump- been advanced, I will notice a few of them as tion, and by a calculation of the quota, she will well as my small ability will permit. That gen'pay upwards of 600,000 dollars more than she tleman's first argument is, that the debts were will be benefited by. New Hampshire and contracted on behalf and for the benefit of the Georgia ought to receive, if a just quota was al- United States, and that therefore justice relowed as their sixty-fifth parts of the 21,000,000 quires they should be assumed. On this princidollars, 969,231 dollars each; they are, by the ple, the gentleman has endeavored to prove system before the House, to receive but 300,000 that the debts are of the same nature, and, in dollars each, which makes a deficiency of 669,231 fact, the debts of the United States. The very dollars of their proportion of the amount which term, however, which he uses, of State debts, is to benefit other States, and the citizens of must convince him they are so; his explanation New Hampshire and Georgia are to pay it. with a gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Can this House expect that they will quietly GERRY,) why they were not inserted in the submit to it? If the citizens of New Hampshire Constitution, has convinced me that they were are disposed to be easy under the imposition, I not respected as the debts of the Union by the do not believe the citizens of the State of Geor- Convention. The Convention met, and the gia will be contented. Let us examine some of Constitution was formed for the restoration of the other States. Massachusetts is to receive public credit, and if the State debts were a part of the sum 4,000,000 dollars; her just quota of of the debt of the Union, provision would have the sum would be 2,646,153 dollars, or there-been made for them. But, sir, if the Convenabouts, enjoying an excess in her favor of tion had no power to insert them in the Consti1,353,846 dollars. South Carolina has still a tution, whence all our powers are derived, greater excess, she is to receive 4,000,000 dol-neither, sir, have we a power, under that Confars; her quota of the sum would be 1,653,846 dollars and some cents; the excess in her favor will be 2,346,153 dollars. North Carolina has stitution, to provide for the payment of them. Neither are those debts of the same nature with that of the United States. The same scruti nizing eye hath not pervaded the respective States. Some States, in expectation of being the paymasters themselves, have dealt with a rigid parsimony; others have been as extravagantly liberal. Some have allowed regiments of officers to their militia without men, whilst others have reduced their officers to a grinding situation. Some have allowed large bounties and pay, as has been the case with some of the States who complain most, whilst others have scarcely allowed bounty or pay at all. Many of the charges of individual States would be rejected; whilst others, which the States have rejected, would be allowed. The difference is very great, and as clear as the day, and none but interested individuals can prevent discerning it. The second argument of the gentleman is, that some States have taken upon themselves greater sums than their proportions or abilities will pay. [JULY 23, 1790. those who took protection remaining. That impolitic and improper; the impost alone is taken, and this is not grumbled at; the States gave it years ago, when the payment of State debts was not thought of. The journal the gentleman has referred to does not include the State debts; the impost of five per cent. was required from the States for the payment of the real debts of the Union; suppose all the States had agreed to that measure, would not they still have paid their own debts? This, sir, I think doubtful; nor can it be ascertained but by a settlement of accounts which alone can determine. But, sir, let us examine, on the principles of equity, the claims of the two States which complain the most-a part. Massachusetts and South Carolina. The for- This argument is in a great measure done mer has, it is said, greatly exceeded her quota. away. Congress have rejected the excise as The fair method to judge of this is, to compare her exertions, during the war, with her ability. | This solid principle of judging has been lost sight of, although contended for when the bill for the settlement of accounts was before the House. At the commencement of the war, there is no doubt that the citizens of Massachusetts, in and near Boston, suffered considerably; but from the evacuation of that city to the end of the war, she felt the advantages rather than the disadvantages of war. She carried on the me- The fourth argument, that imposts and exdium of commerce for the Union-her mercises can be best managed under one direction, chants, and her country, of course, would be | falls with the third; excises are rejected, and I enriched; she became enabled, therefore, to hope the House have no intention of bringing make greater exertions, and no doubt did her them forward again. I trust that Congress will part. Contrast this with some others of the not be like the Long Parliament-foster them in States. Overrun by the enemy-houses and secret, while they openly disavow them. plantations destroyed-commerce arrestedmerchants and citizens totally ruined, and the most opulent families beggared. I will leave to the gentlemen from Massachusetts themselves, I will appeal to their candor, to determine, if their debt was double the amount, which was the better fate! South Carolina I shall, however, be told, is on the other side; and, in a great measure, I will grant it. The fifth argument of the gentleman, if it is not fully refuted by my reply to his first and second, can be easily accomplished. It is, that equal justice ought to be done to all the creditors; but this cannot be done by individual States, some of them being unable to make provision, burthened beyond their quota, and deprived of former revenues. By the present mode the argument is defeated, for the creditors are not on a footing-the The difficulties of that State have been great, whole is not assumed-a proportion will therethe merits of her citizens many, and her suf- fore still be left to the mercy of the States, ferings out of proportion with most, but not all which may be as backward in their payment of the States. North Carolina and New Jersey now as formerly. Without the assumption at suffered nearly as much, and Georgia more. A | all, the distinction was not hard to be borne. It great proportion of the wealth of South Caroli-was to be borne. It was only between the na was preserved by persons who took protec- State creditors and those of the Union. At tion, or who resided in Europe the greatest part present, the distinction is between the same of the war. This was not the case with Geor-State creditors-those who will benefit are the gia; her citizens were totally beggared, and her speculators near the seat of Government; and country left a wild uninhabited desert-few of those near the Commissioners; whilst those at a JULY 23, 1790.] Public Debt. distance, and who, probably, are the only original holders, will not be benefited. The creditors of one State are not even on a footing with those of another. Massachusetts, South and North Carolina, have the one-half of 21,000,000 dollars allotted them-the two former have nearly their whole debt. I will call on gentlemen to know if any within this House can suppose they have a balance of 10,000,000 dollars due them? The amount of the debt of Georgia is more than was supposed, it amounts to 700,000 dollars-300,000 of which are only to be assumed. If the measure was wise, the whole ought to be assumed. I am not for this partial method; either the assumption ought to be proportioned to the representation, or taken generally, or certificates ought to issue to the States for what they have sunk, as to individuals. The sixth argument is, that the measure is founded in good policy, as well as justice, as it will promote harmony among creditors and different States, attach them to the Government, and facilitate operations. [H. OF R. has asked if the tendency of this measure will be to evil, rather than to common benefit? He is of the latter opinion, although he allows this to be a vague question. If, sir, the question is vague or dubious surely he will not adopt it. He says, however, that it will prevent interference between the State Governments and that of the Union, and prevent the usurpation of one upon the other. That it will prevent usurpation is a fact I will grant the gentleman; for, sir, if the assumption takes place, there will be nothing left to usurp. The States will be deprived of every thing but the shadow of power; they will be reduced to the state of mere colonies, with not even the power they possessed previous to the revolution. That gentleman has likewise told us of the protection the measure would enable the Government of the Union to afford the respective States. Sir, if we were under the Government of a despotic Prince, I suppose that we should be well protected against foreign tyrants, but how should we be protected against himself? We should lay at his mercy, and become his property. The gentleman's argument, there more power we give the Government the better we shall be protected. Sir, the competition, so far from being an injury, is, in my opinion, a benefit; jealousies are necessary in all free countries, and as long as those jealousies exist, the people will be safe; whether, therefore, the State Governments are to be considered as rivals, watchmen, or legislators, State powers are absolutely necessary. That it is not founded in justice I think has been pretty well shown. Its policy was clearly proved, at a former day, to have been a consoli-fore, goes too far, when it tends to prove the dation of the Government; and, sir, I believe, with it, a consolidation of the people's liberties. The object certainly was the absorbing the whole of the State powers within the vortex of the all-devouring General Government; seven years were we fighting to establish props for liberty, and in less than two years since the adoption of the Constitution are we trying to kick them all away, and he is the ablest politician, and the best man of the day, who can do most to destroy the child of liberty of his own raising. A friend, sir, to the State Governments, or the liberties of the people, is as much lost at the present day, as if he had belonged to the last century, and had a resurrection in the present age. The gentleman from Connecticut has noticed an argument respecting the ratio of contribution by impost, and has alluded to the Journal of Congress of the 29th of April, 1783, where, he says, it is clearly proved that the States contribute to impost according to the number of inhabitants. The gentleman from MassachuBut, sir, if so much of this patriotism is lost setts has likewise noticed this. I grant those near the seat of Government, let us not sup-gentlemen that the consumer pays, but I deny pose that it is the case with the whole of the United States. The States will not tamely submit to a measure calculated to distress, and manifestly founded in injustice and the ruin of the State Governments. So far will it be from producing the harmony the gentleman has supposed, that I think I can venture to prophesy it will occasion discord, and generate rancor against the Union. For if it benefits one part of the United States it oppresses another. If it lulls the Shays of the North it will rouse the Sullivans of the South. that the States pay agreeably to population-they contribute, sir, agreeably to habit. Connecticut manufactures a great deal, and she imports little. Georgia manufactures nothing, and imports every thing. Therefore Georgia, although her population is not near so large, contributes more to the public Treasury by impost. But admitting the force of the gentleman's arguments, and let it be fixed at populationyet, sir, on the principles of justice, the arguments, so far as respects the assumption, must fail. Impost, as well as all other taxes, is an imposition, and only to be permitted in cases of necessity, or where preservation to Govern The more checks there are to any Government, the more free will its citizens be. The State powers are a most effectual and necessary check against encroachments from the Government requires it; it is an actual encroachment ment of the Union. The assumption, by annihilating the powers of the State Governments, will prove a decisive and fatal stroke at that check. A gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr.AMES) on the people's rights in any other view. Vattel, the celebrated writer on the laws of nations, calls the freedom of commerce a natural right, and says, that instead of burthens and restrictions, it is the duty of all nations to give it the utmost freedom, and that restrictions can only be justified on very important reasons, arising from the public good. In America, that necessity has originated from the public debt, and the necessity will remain as long as the public debt exists. Add to that debt, and you add to the necessity; go on in that ratio, and you may keep the necessity for ever. But, sir, shall we, to strengthen the Government, add to our debts, and injure the people? zens have given this into our hands; that we It has, however, been advanced, that the citiare in the exercise of it, and it has been implied that we shall always keep it. The gentlemen who use this language know not the people of America. Sir, it is expected, and I hope never will be lost sight of, that when the necessity is at an end the duties will be taken off. Besides, is the impost more in our power than the excise, or direct taxation? The one is equally given us with the other, and carry the idea of impost as far as some gentlemen wish it, and you may carry direct taxation as far. We are not confined in our powers, and if Congress choose to tax the citizens to the whole amount of their estates, there is power sufficient in the Constitution to warrant it. But, sir, would the citizens submit to it? So far am I from agreeing with the gentlemen, that I can assure them it was expected that the States would have been credited for the imposts they furnished. who first adopted the measure-will they foster it in secret, while they apparently reject it? Where else, I ask, are the ways and means to satisfy this accumulated debt? Your impost is stretched to the utmost; if you go further, you will not only oppress the people, but lose your revenue. Will you proceed to direct taxation? We have been informed that the people will not submit to it. If the House, sir, will not submit to the voice of reason, and are determined to assume, and the measure should appear the result, not still, sir, I insist that this is not the period. The respective States ought to be consulted, of party or bargain, but the result of deliberation, which all our measures at the least ought to wear the appearance of. It will appear to be the former, if adopted now, after so many decisions. Even in Massachusetts, let us listen to the warnings of a Hancock, that father of 1776, who, by his signature, first pronounced you a free nation-hear the venerable patriot expressing his doubts of the powers of Congress in this respect, without the consent of the respective States first obtained. Her Legislature, in compliance, instructed their Senators and Representatives; this was done, although we the country was overloaded with debt, and her were told on this floor, about that time, that citizens borne down with the weight of taxes. What other States have done the same? None but South Carolina; so that the two States only which are interested in this business, have received instructions from their Legislatures. The gentleman from Connecticut has noticed Let me ask this House, if those two States an argument of mine respecting the debt of have received instructions, where so much inGeorgia; but he has not refuted the justice of terested, if the other States should not also be it. He says it is an additional reason for as- consulted, and where they are to receive no suming. Sir, I do not believe that there are benefit from the measure? I request the House twenty original holders in Georgia; the original to think of the evil consequences of it before holders received no interest, nor did they ex-it is too late, and at least to postpone it until pect any; they parted with the certificates as they stood, without interest; the speculators now hold them, and contrary to the tenor of the certificates, the intention of the State, and the contract they made, they will be allowed interest. Here will be a prodigious distinction, the one-half of the creditors of Georgia receiving interest, the others none; how is this to be reconciled? Besides, sir, the debt will be increased one-half; there will be an additional debt, if interest is allowed on the whole, of 350,000 dollars, supposing the debt to amount to 700,000 dollars; will the original holder who did the service, or furnished the supply, be contented to be taxed to supply this interest, when he himself was not allowed it? the next session. If it is good now, it will be good then. If it is not adopted now, it can be then; but if it is assumed at the present session, we shall be bound without the power of relieving ourselves again from the burthen. Let us not exhibit a monument to mankind of the impossibility of preserving republican manners by aping European nations, and laying the foundation of our Government in immense debts. Sir, our terms of service, happily I believe for the country, are near expiring. We shall return to the mass of the people, and participate in the burthens we impose. When the cool hour of investigation arrives, happy indeed will it be for us if, amidst the murmur of an oppressed people, we have not to say, in self condemnation, Another argument arises now against the I too have been guilty of bringing this load of measure, which did not exist at a former day-sin on the nation, and this load of fetters on the the excise, which had begun to set the Continent in a flame, has been rejected. Are there members hardy enough to adopt and sanction it now, after they have exerted themselves against it? For this must be the case, or it will be again rejected. Will this House, as I before mentioned, be like the Long Parliament of England,| people. America, sir, will not always think as is the fashion of the present day; and when the iron hand of tyranny is felt, denunciations will fall on those who, by imposing this enormous and iniquitous debt, will beggar the people and bind them in chains. |