Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What did you have in mind when you said this morning that both sides employed spies?

Mr. PERHAM. I don't remember having said that.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Perhaps I misunderstood that. I got the impression, I think, from the testimony that you knew the railroads had spies in your ranks, and that you had spies in their ranks; that you hired the men to go out and gather information.

Mr. PERHAM. I tried to make it clear that these men were organizers, soliciting members, and not spies.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Not telegraph operators themselves?

Mr. PERHAM. They are mostly railroad employees, ex-employees. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Then you probably heard Mr. Atterbury on the witness stand a little while ago make this statement also, in discussing the question of spies, that information right from his own office was made known in labor circles. That he knew it, and they knew that he knew it. Now, is that information gotten out of the office?

Mr. PERHAM. I heard that testimony, and it possibly would account for Mr. Atterbury's attitude toward organizations, that he was mistaken about that, that there was no legitimate organization that had anything to do with that character of work. We hold ourselves above it, and would sooner have no information than to get it in such a manner as that.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. I think the record shows, as Mr. Perham states, that Mr. Perham did not indicate that they were hiring spies or anything of that nature, but that organizers in the conduct of their work did make it their business, and did report to you certain things of interest which they ascertained, without the knowledge of the officers of the Pennsylvania, in their own manner, but as far as employing spies is concerned, for that particular purpose, you didn't do it.

Mr. PERHAM. We didn't do it; and that is what I wanted to make clear. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Do you draw a distinction between an organizer, probably whose function it is to keep you informed as to what is going on, and a telegraph operator? Are these organizers men catside of the ranks or are they also telegraphers?

Mr. PERHAM. These organizers that we have in my employ, I believe there are 17 in the United States and Canada, have served at least 20 years as telegraph operators.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. While acting as organizers, are they also performing the functions of a telegraph operator?

Mr. PERHAM. No, sir; they get better wages as an organizer, because they are selected for that particular purpose, and each man is well known to the man that employs him.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. NOW, we have had labor representatives on the stand in other places, and they have stated very frankly and very openly that they expected these men to get information from the enemy, looking upon it in the light of labor troubles; they expected them to get the information any way they can get it, right or wrong. I don't know whether your union draws the line between the right and wrong way. In other words, I gathered from their statement that a labor trouble is war and that everything is justifiable in war; that one country in war with another does not hesitate to send out spies and get information any way they can, and the same idea prevails in labor wars, and I gather from what you say that your union draws the line and does not gather it in that way?

Mr. PERHAM. I believe that is an exaggeration to say that a labor trouble is war. There are probably people that entertain that view who never had anything to do with war and do not understand what war is. The impression conveyed to my mind is that probably the officials of this company imagine that a labor organization is a subrosa concern, that it is in a way a conspiracy. That is not true. The organization to-day-it would not matter if every letter in my files in St. Louis, say for a period of 10 years, was published in the newspapers, there is nothing to conceal, and I think every railroad man in this country knows what my next move will be in a labor dispute. There is nothing to find out about it, and it is the same way with all other railway organizations.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You mean you play with your cards on the table? Mr. PERHAM. That would be a good expression.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Anything further? If not, you may be excused, Mr. Perham.

TESTIMONY OF MR. W. H. PIERCE.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Will you please state your full name and residence?

Mr. PIERCE. W. H. Pierce.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Your residence?

Mr. PIERCE. Harrisburg, Pa.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Mr. Pierce, what is your business?

Mr. PIERCE. An organizer.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. For what?

Mr. PIERCE. Brotherhood of Federated Railway Employees.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Mr. Pierce, are you familiar with local conditions on the Pennsylvania Railroad?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, somewhat.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Please state your knowledge, and how gained, how you gained such knowledge?

Mr. PIERCE. Practical experience.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. On what line and covering what term of years? Mr. PIERCE. Four years.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And commencing at what time?

Mr. PIERCE. When I say four years, that is exaggerated a little. The 30th day of December, 1911, to make it exact.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And continuing to the present time?

Mr. PIERCE. I have been out of that system several months during that time. I have been on the lines west. I have done special work maybe during that period of time. You understand at the beginning of 1910 I was employed by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen as a national organizer, and I was on for several years, but I came on the Pennsylvania system in December, 1911, and from that time to the present time. I have possibly been off of the Pennsylvania system on lines east or west approximately four or five or six months.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. You have been for a period of about four years an organizer for the Federation of Railway Employees?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir; they were not organized until the 22d of October, 1913. Acting Chairman AISHTON. And since that time you have been connected with that organization?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. What was your experience, Mr. Pierce, prior to this four years' period that you were an organizer-were you connected with some railroad?

Mr. PIERCE. I do not understand the question. Just once more, please? Acting Chairman AISHTON. What was your line of work; what experience before you started into this organization work?

Mr. PIERCE. I done special work at the grand lodge. I was connected with the grand lodge of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, of Peoria, Ill.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. For how long a period?

Mr. PIERCE. About seven years.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Doing special work?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. What was the nature of that special work, please? Mr. PIERCE. Anything that I was assigned to.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Anything in connection with organization?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Of that particular organization?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And was that the first work that you did in your life for that organization?

Mr. PIERCE. Oh, no.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Or were you with them before that?

Mr. PIERCE. I was a member of the executive board and general chairman for many years.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And general chairman of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir; that was before they added the name "Enginemen," Acting Chairman AISHTON. How long were you with them?

Mr. PIERCE. Some eight or ten years.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. You were a paid representative at that time? Mr. PIERCE. The men paid me then only when I was on special work for the grand lodge.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And prior to that line of work, where were you engaged?

Mr. PIERCE. I went to school.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Did you fire a locomotive?

Mr. PIERCE. I did.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. For how long?

Mr. PIERCE. Three years and one day.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. You fired a locomotive during this period you were chairman of that committee?

Mr. PIERCE. I was an engineer also.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. And at the present time you are compensated for your services by some organization?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. The Federation of Railway Employees?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Now, Mr. Pierce, what knowledge have you as to the shop conditions on the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1913 and 1914? You have prepared no statement, as I understand it?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir; if you will give me a specific case I will tell you anything I possibly can.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. I presume you have been furnished with a statement of the questions that will be asked?

Mr. PIERCE. I have not that I know of.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Have you any knowledge of the shop conditions on the Pennsylvania in 1913 and 1914?

Mr. PIERCE. I have had more or less knowledge ever since I have come here in 1911.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Have you a knowledge of shop conditions on other lines in the territory surrounding the Pennsylvania?

Mr. PIERCE. I have, on the Baltimore & Ohio and the Erie and the New York Central lines.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. If you can not explain in detail the conditions on the Pennsylvania road, can you make a comparison between the conditions on the Pennsylvania road and other lines in that territory?

Mr. PIERCE. Wherever there is piecework or the piecework system is established a majority of the men are dissatisfied. I will say to you, if you will allow me, that I believe that has caused one-half of the unrest to-day. The efficiency system that is put into effect under the piecework system makes it impossible for only those who are the most proficient, and possibly those that have more energy to burn up, to make any money. Under the piecework system men are grouped, they have gangs, and many cases where there are new men coming into the service, all the time as apprentices, Mr. Atterbury said they bring up their own apprentices, and you take a gang of 10 or 12 or 15 men and have 4 or 5 apprentices, and it is impossible, almost impossible, for them to earn any money at all because they are not accustomed to that work; it is a trade by itself-car repairing and repairing engines and special roundhouse work. You take, after they have been in the service many years and a gang have become acquainted with each other, and they work and the allotment of the work, and they make very fair wages when they have full time. The conditions where there is piecework on any line of railroad all depends upon the blueprint or the price that is paid for it. The efficiency system you understand possibly as well as I, being a railroad man, as I understand you are; a man first entering the service he earns but little, afterwards becomes more proficient and can earn a fair salary, but he soon breaks himself down, and at 40 or 45 he is an old man.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. You have made no statement as to the shop conditions on the Pennsylvania in 1913 and 1914 other than the general stateas to the efficiency system. Do you desire to make any statement as to that condition?

Mr. PIERCE. I find this on the Pennsylvania system, that they have a very elaborate and proficient police service, probably the greatest in the world for any corporation of its size-in the railroad field at least. The men who work in their shops-that is, outside of the transportation men, comprising between 108,000 and 113,000 men-they are denied the right that is extended to the

men in the transportation department, and until they are given equal rights there always will be unrest there, and the conditions will never be what they should be.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Now, Mr. Pierce, will you tell us what brought about the inception of the Brotherhood of Federated Railway Employees?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir. In June, 1913, certain employees of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. held a meeting in the city of Pittsburgh, the first Monday in June, and at that meeting there was an organization contemplated and afterwards put into effect on that system that was known as the Pennsylvania Railroad Employees' Mutual Benefit Association. They have changed the name of that association several times and I can not tell you just exactly what the name of it now is, but it is practically the same. I is a benefit, mutual benefit, association, taking in all classes of employees. I think it was in August, 1913, I was instructed to attend some meetings on the Pennsylvania system. Acting Chairman AISHTON. Instructed by whom?

Mr. PIERCE. By the international president of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, W. S. Carter, and at those meetings it was brought out that they were getting out a tentative application to have these employees sign for this mutual admiration association, and it was brought out there that the intent and purpose of this organization was, and I think it has been fairly displayed here this afternoon what the special purpose was, when Mr. Atterbury said he was heartily in favor of an organization exclusively of Pennsylvania Railroad employees, because that organization is thriving there at the present time, and without a doubt his anticipations will be filled within a short time in my estimation. And in attending those meetings it seemed that they had some organizers in the field. Now, it has always been a mystery to me how it is that men who have tried to organize these men have been hounded by their detectives, but evidently they overlooked the fact that the company people were in league with ex-members of labor organizations which were trying to organize these men. At any rate they seemed to have a free hand. When the tentative constitution was drawn a copy of a letter was sent to Mr. Long, the general manager, asking him, by the man who was chairman of the meeting, if he could make any recommendations and if that one met with his approval. Of course, I did not get the correspondence, and while it has been said we do not do any detective work I want to confess that I do, and I did some there, and that is how I got this constitution or letter that was sent to General Manager Long, and I want to say to you that I don't blame those fellows for doing that class of work, myself, under this system. I have nothing against those people in doing detective work. All I have asked is that they keep them a certain distance from me, because I did not want the people in a town to think I was associating with them. I have no objection, however, to them following me and I have had a large quota around me all the time, and I have felt safe against foreign invasion, because I have had from 10 to 20 following me around, and all I have asked is that they keep a proper distance. Acting Chairman AISHTON. About how far?

Mr. PIERCE. I would think half a block would be about right. I have often thought that I could have saved the Pennsylvania Railroad a large amount of money if they would have allowed me to make a report every day where I was and what I done, because they made a large job for a lot of suckers I made a report to the international officers of our organization and we had several conferences, and it was decided to fight fire with fire, so we started in. Acting Chairman AISHTON. Parden me for the interruption. At this period you were still the organizer for the B. of L. E. & E. and acted under instructions from Mr. Carter?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir; you have it. In attending these meetings, I advised them not to go into this mutual admiration association, because I believe it would have been a bad thing; whether it would be or not time will tell, because it is only a short time until it will be put into effect, and we will all get a chance to see it; but I told the men, advised them to organize themselves, and at about every meeting we held they would say they did not dare to organize themselves, they would be discharged, and would not become officers of the organization, and they wanted to know if I would become the head of them and organize them. At that time there was a trip laid out for me to the Pacific coast on some work for the organization, but I was destined to be in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and Delaware and Maryland for a period of 60 or 90 days, and I told the men who attended those meetings that I would draw them up a tentative constitution and application and they should pick

their own men to run their organization, but I would give that time to them gratuitously to assist them, and so I did. At every meeting we had the halls were not big enough to hold the people who wanted to join the organization; always overflows.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Were any of these meetings in Altoona?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir; and right here I will tell you, you have heard a great deal said about not being able to get halls. Do you know I was accused by one organizer from the American Federation of Labor of being in league with the railroads because I could get a hall in Altoona, and for your information I will tell you how I got it; I bought it. I bought the entire hall; that is how I got it. The Pennsylvania Railroad would have stopped me; they have stopped me in other places, and Mr. Lamb, a detective, is here and he can tell you how they stopped it. I went them one better in Altoona. I had the experience of the American Federation of Labor.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Proceed, and do not get away from the subject any more than possible.

Mr. PIERCE, Yes, sir; I will try to do so, but I may drift away, and if so, I may be corrected. I believe these meetings were all of an overflow character. I drew them a tentative constitution and presented it to them, and I took an organizer by the name of McDevitt, who was an organizer for the firemen, but who had been relieved from service on account of the work being nearly completed which he was assigned to, and I put him in charge of this new organization to organize these men. It went along until we had four or five men working and eventually, you understand, I was working with the firemen all day soliciting membership and straightening out affairs with the firemen's organization and then attending meetings all night, and I commenced to be run down; I could not stand the work, it was too strenuous. So we had a conference here in the city of Washington of several members of the firemen's organization, and at that meeting I told them I could not go any further and carry the two organizations, and it was agreed that I should take a leave of absence for a certain length of time, and so I did.

Acting Chairman AISHTON. A leave of absence from the service of the firemen ?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir; and so I took a leave of absence from the firemen and agreed to act as the head of this organization for a period of 90 days, thinking that in the meantime there would some one develop that would take charge of the affairs, as it was always my contention that one of their own men should be at the head of it. While I have been accused of many things, and it being a one-man organization, as I heard one of your honorable board say, or words to that effect, I want to say that was farthest from my thought, and all the time, until I got a leave of absence, I was working only under instructions of W. S. Carter. But during this period of leave of absence of 90 days this organization grew by leaps and bounds, and the American Federation of Labor began to get worried; that is where a little jealousy crept in; the American Federation of Labor commenced to get worried, and they saw that if this oganization was a success they would lose their membership on the different lines of railroads connected with the American Federation of Labor, and so they commenced to put up a wail and howl like a dog with a tin can tied to its tail, and they commenced to send out reports and letters, and they commenced to make Brother Carter take water, and Brother Carter told me to commence unloading on some one else, but I was not of that unloading disposition, and I did not propose to draw a man into a hole and leave him in the hole. I made up my mind to get him out of it, and simply because the American Federation of Labor wished to control labor, wished the transportation men to keep their hands off from men employed by railroads which would not allow the American Federation of Labor on their grounds, or to organize them, and simply because we were having success and they were purely jealous of that success, I continued and was loyal to those men. Everything went along beautifully until along in January, when they commenced to suspend men, and it is not necessary for me to tell you here this afternoon that Mr. Atterbury's system of spying worked out beautifully in this case, because the men they put in the shops were certainly loyal to the Pennsylvania Railroad Co.; and I can tell Mr. Long and Mr. Atterbury how many they had; they had 36 in the city of Harrisburg. know their methods, and possibly I could tell Mr. Atterbury and Mr. Long their method of procedure in the shops.

I

Acting Chairman AISHTON. Mr. Pierce, at this point, you have finished with the inception