Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I have in my hand a document entitled “Petition to the Commission on Industrial Relations from the Order of Railroad Telegraphers, by H. B. Perham, president," in which certain charges are made against the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., among others this charge on page 3, that the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. appears to exercise so complete a domination over all of the affairs, industrial and governmental, over a large area of this country that it is sufficient to overthrow legal and constitutional rights of persons not favorable to its domination. That within the area of the domination of this company liberty exists not under law but only to the extent of this company's authorization. Its men have no rights as men, but merely such rights as it permits. Now, you have been a citizen and a public man, mayor of Altoona, and what would be your comment on this charge?

Mr. HOYER. That seems to be the general impression, but I could not say this impression is correct.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What are the facts as you know the facts to be? Mr. HOYER. I was in public office 16 years, as councilman and mayor of Altoona, and I was never asked to do anything that was not entirely right, in my opinion, excepting in this strike proposition, and I suppose in my feeling for humanity-I started as a bit of a boy myself at work-I talked a good deal, I suppose, at that time, and that is why, I suppose. I am here to-day; but I did it because I thought an occurrence of that kind should not happen, if possible, in my city again.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Were your sympathies in that particular strike with the strikers or with the company?

Mr. HOYER. Neither; I was only interested, as mayor of the city, in my capacity of keeping order, and that I was doing, and while I was doing that I was prevailed on to do things that looked so ridiculous to me that I became sort of red-headed over it and lost my temper.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Prevailed on by whom?

Mr. HOYER. Mr. Creighton. Creighton was the man.
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Who was Creighton?

Mr. HOYER. He was general superintendent of the road.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co.?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. But you did not comply with his requests?
Mr. HOYER. I did not.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You acted independently?

Mr. HOYER. I did.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You had no political fears in doing that?

Mr. HOYER. I had not; no. I was doing my duty. I made that remark, and I think Mr. Creighton is here to-day and will bear me out in that-that if I have to leave town the day following the expiration of my term as mayor, I will do my duty as I see it.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Then I should understand your position to be this: That while there is a general impression abroad that the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. does exercise domination over governmental affairs within its area, that that is not a fact?

Mr. HOYER. Well, from self-experience I could not say so. I have been in office so long, maybe, that they know I am one of the fellows they did not need to look after; I do not know what they might do with other people.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Do you know of any instances that have come under your observation or knowledge?

Mr. HOYER. Yes; I do.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Where they did control politically?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Please cite those instances.

Mr. HOYER. I could cite the instance of a contract that was let during my last administration, involving about $30,000, where another was $15,000 less than the one who was given the contract. I vetoed the proposition, because I wanted to be fair to the people who paid the bill, and then one of the railroad officials did call in men who asked me to veto this same legislation and asked them to pass it over my veto after that, after they had been in my private office and asked me. I said, "Men, you do not need to ask me; I will do that regardless of whether you stand by me or not; it is a matter of duty." One of the railroad officials did get the men to change and do the other thing a day or two later.

Commssioner WEINSTOCK. You mean members of the board of aldermen?

Mr. HOYER. No; council.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. How many were there?

Mr. HOYER. At that time we had a council, but at this time we have a board of commissioners. We had a council then consisting of 36 members. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. There were 36 members in the council?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And it took 19, I presume, to carry?

Mr. HOYER. No; there were two branches. There were 12 wards and 12 members of the higher branch and 24 members of the lower branch. So of the higher branch it took 7 members for a quorum. It took two-thirds to pass a resolution over my veto. They got the two-thirds.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. As I understand it, the council approved of a certain bid which was 15 per cent higher than a certain other bid? Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. On what grounds did they approve of this higher

bid?

Mr. HOYER. They did not have anything to say, only it was let to a home contractor.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. But it meant a 15 per cent loss to the people? Mr. HOYER. Fifteen thousand dollars, practically.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And you then vetoed that measure?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And it was passed over your veto?
Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And you say it was passed over your veto because the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., through its representatives, influenced enough members of the council to carry it over your veto?

Mr. HOYER. That is where I am told the influence came from by the gentleman who helped do it. So that is as near as I can get to it.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You do not know it of your own personal knowledge, but only from hearsay?

Mr. HOYER. That is correct; they would not let me know that.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Do you know of any other instance where the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. was said to have used their influence or power politically?

Mr. HOYER. Oh, yes; but in rather minor affairs, you know. I would not want to say very much about that, because, as I said to you, during all the years I was in public life no official has ever asked me to do anything that did not seem to be entirely all right, except this request of Mr. Creighton.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. In order to make the thing still clearer, let me say that in my own State of California, for many years, the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. absolutely dominated politically, and no man could get a nomination unless it was with the approval of the Southern Pacific Railroad Co.; they ruled the destinies of the State politically and held that part of the State in the palm of their hand. Does that same condition prevail in your vicinity? Mr. HOYER. No.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. It does not?

Mr. HOYER. Not so much; I would not say that.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Do the employees of the Pennsylvania Railroad in Altoona, so far as you know, vote independently, or are they dictated to by the company?

Mr. HOYER. As councilman?

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No; voting as voters.

Mr. HOYER. Employees?

Mr. WEINSTOCK. Yes; so far as you know, has the company tried to influence the vote of its employees?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. It has?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. In what way?

Mr. HOYER. In trying to get them to vote against a certain candidate; but that generally acted as a boomerang against them as to the fellow that they were trying to defeat.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What would be their method of endeavoring to get their employees to vote as they wanted them to vote?

Mr. HOYER. Generally through the foremen.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. The foremen would pass the word down the line?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Would the men, so far as you know, comply with the request?

Mr. HOYER. Well, we have a secret ballot in Pennsylvania, and it generally just had the opposite effect.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. So that they really had no control?

Mr. HOYER. Not very much, I would not think so; no. If they showed their hand at all, it only had the opposite effect, even with their own employees. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is, their employees seemed to resent being dictated to?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And would exercise an independent privilege? Mr. HOYER. Yes, sir.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Really, Mr. Hoyer, the only points of difference that occurred between you and the officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad was a difference of opinion between yourself and Mr. Creighton, the general superintendent, as to the advisability of the arrest of a number of people?

Mr. HOYER. Yes, sir.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. In the first instance?

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And in the last instance about the advisability of some 300 men being taken back into the shop in a body after their notice had expired?

Mr. HOYER. Yes; between 500 and 600-573 men altogether.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. So those are the only points of difference that

arose?

Mr. HOYER. Yes, sir; I have come in contact with the officials of the Pennsylvania Railroad at Altoona for many years, starting in 1888, and always had the kindest treatment and no unreasonable requests made of me except by Mr. Creighton in this strike affair.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And your principal criticism of the handling of the strike

Mr. HOYER (interrupting). Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK (continuing). Is the failure to take those men back immediately without any question?

Mr. HOYER. From interfering, you mean?
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No; I say-

Mr. HOYER. Oh, yes; I understand; yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. So the principal criticism you would have of handling that strike was their failure to take those men back to work after their time expired?

Mr. HOYER. Yes, sir; there are a great many of them being punished to this day; I know-many of them to this day.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Lennon has some questions.

Commissioner LENNON. Mr. Hoyer, I understood you to say that you made the remark that you intended to perform your duty as you say it even if it caused you to have to leave Altoona the day after your term of office expired. What put that frame of mind into your head so that you gave expression to that?

Mr. HOYER. Well, I knew the powerful influence of this great railroad company.

Commissioner LENNON. So that there was evidently some power that

Mr. HOYER (interrupting). I knew that Mr. Creighton would not feel kindly to me, of course, taking the position I did, and I am sure I have felt very unkindly toward him for the position he took.

Commissioner LENNON. You mentioned another cause which seems to give some exhibition of political influence or domination. I understood you that after this Mr. Luther had disappeared-failed to appear for preliminary examination, some time thereafter some one came to you and asked that you let up so far as the information which had been filed by your chief of police— that the judge had been fixed, the the constable had been reached with the necessary influence, and that the only thing that stood in the way of the man "eturning to Altoona and his family was your position.

Mr. HOYER. Yes.

Commissioner LENNON. Do you think that is an evidence of domination in the affairs of a community that is commendable by a corporation?

Mr. HOYER. It is not. It is disgraceful.

Commissioner LENNON. I think that is all.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. O'Connell, did you have something?

Commissioner O'CONNELL. No; Commissioner Lennon asked the question. Chairman WALSH. That is all, then, thank you, Mr. Hoyer. You are excused permanently, unless you have some statement that you desire to make. Mr. HOYER. Oh, no; no, indeed.

Commissioner AISHTON. Mr. Walsh, may I ask one more question?

Chairman WALSH. Yes; certainly.

Commissioner AISHTON. Is there a record of any kind of any investigation at Altoona into the circumstances of the injury of this man Gallagher by the township constable?

Mr. HOYER. Oh, yes. I had a full account of that, and I believe, if you wanted it, I could send it to you.

Commissioner AISHTON. It is a matter among the records of the city of Altoona, is it?

Mr. HOYER. Yes. It might be out. There was some person asked for that, and I would have to find out whether it was ever returned. If it was not, I would not know where to find it. But that gives a full statement of the number of people who came onto the scene while it was taking place, and that is what made me feel so badly that that man was spirited away.

(The witness later submitted a newspaper clipping dated Altoona, June 25, 1911, headed "Early Sunday morning row-As a consequence Organizer John J. Gallagher is in the hospital-Is not seriously injured-Alleged assailant was Charles Luther, of Juniata-Stories of trouble conflict.")

Commissioner AISHTON. That was all, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman WALSH. Now, in regard to the influencing of these officers that you have mentioned, who was it told you about that?

Mr. HOYER. Beg your pardon, I don't

Chairman WALSH (interrupting). This matter that Commissioner Lennon just asked you about, where you stated that somebody came to you and told you about the judge and other officials had been fixed, was the expression, I believe, that you used.

Mr. HOYER. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Who was it that made that expression?

Mr. HOYER. Mr. Reading, superintendent of motive power at Altoona.

Chairman WALSH. Did he say who committed this offense, who had spoken to these officers?

Mr. HOYER. The man that he wanted back?

Chairman WALSH. Yes.

Mr. HOYER. Yes; he asked me this, whether I would leave up on Officer Luther

Chairman WALSH (interrupting). Yes; but did he tell you who fixed the judge?

Chairman WALSH. He was no more specific than that?

Mr. HOYER. No more; no.

Chairman WALSH. That is all, thank you, Mr. Hoyer.
Mr. Creighton.

TESTIMONY OF MR. G. W. CREIGHTON.

Chairman WALSH. What is your name, please?

Mr. CREIGHTON. G. W. Creighton.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Creighton, I thought perhaps it might be that you would want to go on as closely after Mr. Hoyer as possible, so that some of these matters might be fresh in your mind that have not really been submitted to you in the little questionnaire, so that if there is any statement you have to make, I think it would be agreeable to the commission for you to make it now, because I have promised to let another gentleman get away; and when you have made the general statement covering anything you desire to make, I will then ask you to stand aside

Mr. CREIGHTON (interrupting). And then recall me?

38819°-S. Doc. 415, 64-1-vol 11- -10

Chairman WALSH. And then recall you. No; you may make your statement now, if there is anything growing out of what this last witness said

Mr. CREIGHTON. Well, I want to thank you for your giving me the opportunity for making a general explanation of this situation. It is quite apparent from what Mayor Hoyer has told you that there was a very wide difference of› opinion in which the strike troubles should be conducted.

We can very readily understand that a man occupying the position that I did, at the head of the local organization, approximating sixteen or seventeen thousand men, with probably forty or fifty million dollars at stake, was anxious that there should be nothing left undone that would insure the normal operation of the property-the running of trains and the normal conduct of the shop proposition. We had at that time, as you will note by our report, approximately 11,600 men

Chairman WALSH (interrupting). Yes. My attention has been called to the fact that I have not asked you some general questions. Your name is C. W. or G. W.?

Mr. CREIGHTON. G. W. Creighton.

Chairman WALSH. And you are the general superintendent of the Pennsyl

vania Railroad?

Mr. CREIGHTON. From Altoona east.

Chairman WALSH. And your residence is in Altoona?

Mr. CREIGHTON. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. And your headquarters are in Altoona?

Mr. CREIGHTON. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Very well. You may proceed.

Mr. CREIGHTON. What I was going to say is, with 11,600 men in our service, they are liable to be affected by a strike which we operating people recognize would have paralyzed the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. I was required to take every action at my disposal to prevent, first, the strike; and if, after the strike occurred, any-to prevent anything that would, in my judgment, interfere with, as I said before, the normal operation of the road.

My attitude toward the mayor I think he very clearly expressed in that latter statement he made, namely, that at only one time during his entire career as an officer of the local government was there any difference of opinion. I had on numerous occasions offered him and assured him of the personal and official assistance of this railroad toward conducting the city's affairs. That has always been the case at Altoona. There has been the most cordial spirit between the city and the railroad authorities. There has never been any effort at coercion. At times probably we had our preference for this or that person for office, and I am very glad that the mayor very aptly expressed our inability to control affairs. The men are a very forceful and intelligent body of men, able to exercise their own prerogatives, and they do it. At the time this strike was threatening this little volume that we have submitted in evidence clearly indicates to you the fact that we did not rely on our own judgment of the best methods to pursue. Personally I was very anxious that I should have the benefit of advice of everybody of consequence in the community; and this recites in connection with this particular strike-I would like to read from it, with your permission, simply that you may understand my own personal attitude toward this question. I am going to read-I am not going to burden you with a lot of information, but just simply want to mention this one point. On page 15 of this history of the labor troubles we go on to recite the fact that the difficulty first originated on the western Pennsylvania division, which is that portion of the railroad west of the Alleghenies and west of my division and under another general superintendent. In time the organizers came to Altoona, as described by the mayor, and endeavored to organize the shopmen at Altoona, without question recognizing, as anyone should, that it was probably the most sensitive point in our whole operation.

On page 16 you will note here a statement to the effect that the general superintendent, meaning myself-this is a recitation, by the way, on the part of the general manager-called a meeting of the mayor of Altoona, representatives of the newspapers, president of the board of trade, and number of prominent citizens. He explained to them all the facts in the case and the prospect of labor difficulties at Altoona, and their advice was requested as to the best plan to pursue. It was decided that the general superintendent should prepare for publication the facts with regard to conditions at that point.

Then I go on to recite in detail the exact statement which was published in the morning and evening papers. We have four papers there, and, as I stated,