Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know any of them at all. Chairman WALSH. Now, did you have Pinkerton men in the different departments of the railroad acting as employees? Mr. JOHNSON. There may be; yes, sir. All I ask of the Pinkerton people is to bring me the information needed. They have to get it the best way they can. Chairman WALSH. How is information transmitted to you? Mr. JOHNSON. By reports. Chairman WALSH. Do you meet the operative at all? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. Do any of these detectives do what might be called police duty? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; I don't think they have any commissions; I don't think they can make arrests. Commissioner GARRETSON. Have you any corps, Mr. Johnson, with which you are in direct connection among your various classes of employees which constitutes a regular bureau that furnishes you such information as may be of interest to you? Mr. JOHNSON. Among our own employees? Commissioner GARRETSON. Yes, sir; in all classes. Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; as I stated to the chairman, we have among our employees men who are our friends, that tell us things that happen; but we have no regular corps. Commissioner GARRETSON. You don't have any of the operators that report what takes place over the wire, or baggagemen that make examination of transit mail or company mail? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. Commissioner GARRETSON. That is all done by the Pinkertons? Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know anything about examination of the mails. Their instructions are to see that mail carried by the railroad is purely railroad matter, and that comes under the general superintendent of transportation, and I don't know what method they have any more than they expect a baggagemaster, if he gets hold of any mail that he don't think is right, that he should turn it in to be examined. Commissioner GARRETSON. And his curiosity may be quite wide, to know what the men in sending letters to each other may be writing? Mr. JOHNSON. He has no authority to open mail. Commissioner GARRETSON. Is it done without authority, to your knowledge? Mr. JOHNSON. Not to my knowledge. Commissioner GARRETSON. Then, if a man came into possession of a list of names, of course, in a purely legitimate way, that gave a list of 75 employees, giving their number, the amount of money they received, how that money was paid to them, the method of their reporting there for instructions or transmitting their information, they would be Pinkertons, and the men occupying positions with you as conductors or engineers, firemen, brakemen, baggagemen, yardmen, and shopmen of their class, they would not be under your direct supervision, but under the Pinkertons? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Commissioner AISHTON. Just one question, Mr. Johnson; I understood one of your officers to say that these men were used simply to develop the situation, that the officers made the investigation. Mr. JOHNSON. That is entirely so. Chairman WALSH. Do you have charge of any arms or ammunition, or other weapons the company might own? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. Who would have them-Mr. Harper? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. Who would? Mr. JOHNSON. I heard the question asked here two or three times. I do not know of any place on the system where we have anything stored for that purpose. At the times we have had our troubles in the past we have got through our purchasing agent a supply of revolvers. Chairman WALSH. So far as you know, there are no arms or ammunition kept on hand? Mr. JOHNSON. I want to explain. After the trouble was over they were returned to the purchasing agent, and I understand he has a few hundred, I don't know how many, just a few hundred, lying there in a safe same place in Philadelphia. Chairman WALSH. Who would know of that, if anyone, who is here? Mr. JOHNSON. I do not know of anyone; I think that is entirely in the hands of the purchasing agent. Mr. MYERS (from the audience). We would be glad to give you that information. Commissioner AISHTON. They are kept stored, in the general practice of the railroads, with the purchasing agent or his subordinates, the storekeeper, who keeps the general stores of the company? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you know whether the Pinkerton people in hunting this information, or any information they might desire, as to any activity on the part of organized labor on the system-whether the men employed on the system are men of the particular trades that are liable to be involved in trouble? Mr. JOHNSON. I understand so. Commissioner O'CONNELL. For instance, if the telegraphers were active on the system, would the men who would be put on the system likely be telegraphers? Mr. JOHNSON. I understand so; yes, sir. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you suppose, if it was essential to have Pinkerton men there, they would try to place them in the national organization of the telegraphers to secure information? Mr. JOHNSON. I do not know about that; if they wanted information, I suppose they would. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you get information that is indicated as coming from the general officers of the organization? Mr. JOHNSON. No. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Your information would not indicate that it comes direct from the national organization? Mr. JOHNSON. No. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you get information of any kind to indicate that the Pinkerton people are reporting information secured at the headquarters of the various organizations, such as the American Federation of Labor? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. Commissioner O'CONNELL. That is all. Chairman WALSH. If there is anything further you desire to say, Mr. Johnson, that we have not asked you about, you are at perfect liberty to do so. Mr. JOHNSON. There is nothing; I want to be frank; there is nothing to conceal. Chairman WALSH. That is all, thank you, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Harper. TESTIMONY OF MR. J. C. HARPER. Chairman WALSH. Please state your name. Mr. HARPER. J. C. Harper. Chairman WALSH. What is your business? Mr. HARPER. Superintendent of police of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Mr. HARPER. At Philadelphia. Chairman WALSH. How long have you resided there? Mr. HARPER. Since February, 1907. Chairman WALSH. I wish you would sketch a little history of your service with the railroad company, please. Mr. HARPER. Or the purpose of the organization? Chairman WALSH. No; your own service. Have you always been superintendent of police? Mr. HARPER. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. I mean your personal service with the company. Mr. HARPER. I came from the telegraph department; I have been with the company 30 years. Chairman WALSH. How does it happen that the police department should be under the telegraph department? Mr. HARPER. It is an awful handicap, but, nevertheless, it is a fact. The public do not understand the importance of the superintendent of telegraph; he is a bigger man than his title indicates. Chairman WALSH. He is on the staff of the general manager, is he? Mr. HARPER. Yes. Chairman WALSH. Is that how he comes to have charge of the police? Mr. HARPER. Yes, because the general manager is too busy a man to handle my matters, which are trifling. Chairman WALSH. I wish you would be brief and give a little history of your police organization, and begin with the classification. I believe it has been submitted to you; the number of uniformed officers, the number of plainclothes men, the number of special-duty men. Mr. HARPER. The organization of the police service was effective November 1, 1907. You understand as a general proposition that until that time it had been purely divisional; each division had its own police, and one division did not know what the other was doing in that respect. Do you want the figures collectively? Chairman WALSH. The number of uniformed officers, plain-clothes men, the number of special-duty men, if there are such; that is the way I have classified my question. Mr. HARPER. The number of men with State authority, 361; number of men with city authority, 33. Incidentally I might mention that the 33 men with city authority are located within the confines of Philadelphia. We have but one actual policeman on the road without authority. This makes the total of actual policemen 395. In addition, the police rolls are burdened with 291 men known as watchmen, without any police authority. Chairman WALSH. Crossing men and the like? Mr. HARPER. They are crossing men-men who have been incapacitated in other departments by reason of injury, loss of arm or leg, or defective sight; and they are used as crossing watchmen, watchmen at freight houses, gates, or they follow a tour of clocks for fire prevention, and so forth. Chairman WALSH. Just describe the authority these men have and the territory in which they act-whether or not they settle at one place, or whether any number of them are transferred from place to place along the road, or how that is. Mr. HARPER. As I have already outlined, the State authority to the policeman is issued by the governor of the Commonwealth. Chairman WALSH. Directly by the governor? Mr. HARPER. Yes, sir; a commission from the State of Pennsylvania; and that commission gives the individual police authority for a period of three years, and must be renewed every three years. Chairman WALSH. Are they renewed every three years? Mr. HARPER. Yes. Chairman WALSH. Are there any others that may operate in other jurisdictions? Mr. HARPER. Yes; in the State of New York for a good while we did not make any effort to obtain police authority from that State; but when we opened our terminal in New York City we did. It was a very large proposition, and in the meantime we operated under city authority. Chairman WALSH. How many have you in the city of New York? Mr. HARPER. Now, I can not give minute figures on that, but I can give you approximate figures as of December 31. Chairman WALSH. We do not want that much detail. How many have you? Mr. HARPER. I will have to give you the New Jersey division, which takes in that territory. Chairman WALSH. You have that in documentary form there? Mr. HARPER. Yes. Chairman WALSH. So you can submit it? Mr. HARPER. Yes. Chairman WALSH. Very well; please submit it, and we will not go into that detail now. (The information requested is printed among the exhibits at the end of this subject as Harper Exhibit.) Chairman WALSH. How are the men armed? Mr. HARPER. These uniformed men are armed with a .32-caliber revolver. Chairman WALSH. Clubs or other weapons? Mr. HARPER. If a man feels he is not physically capable of taking care of himself and, of course, mentality goes with the physical-he is furnished with a leather club about 10 inches long; we do not furnish our men with handy billies or blackjacks. A blackjack puts a hole in your head, whereas the leather don't do you any harm, but temporarily stuns. Chairman WALSH. Where are your leather ones made, or are they purchased? Mr. HARPER. The purchasing agent purchases them. I can not tell you offhand where they come from. Chairman WALSH. To your knowledge, are any arms held in storage at any point on the road? Mr. HARPER. Yes, sir. Chairman WALSH. Just describe their character and where they are located. Mr. HARPER. In a safe in the department of the general purchasing agent at Philadelphia. Broad Street Station; there are 90 guns there. They were purchased for the purpose of arming officers on divisions where a number of post-office safes in our stations had been blown by bandits. In the winter of 1907 I went to Philadelphia-just as an illustration, between Philadelphia and Paoli, a distance of 25 miles, there was not a safe that was not blown up at least once during that winter. Chairman WALSH. That is, the safes in the stations? Mr. HARPER. Yes, sir. In one place, Wynnewood, the safe was blown three : times, and so on down the line. There is absolutely no use of the police going after that element with revolvers, and that was the purpose of buying these guns. We did not have safe blowing any more thereafter. Those guns are in a safe, well protected. Chairman WALSH. You do not know whether there are any other arms than those stored at any place? Mr. HARPER. We might have two or three hundred revolvers that were purchased in bulk in order to get a low rate of cost. You understand that we are governed by the principle that if you are going to give a policeman a revolver it should be a good one, as an inferior make is a dangerous thing; so that for the sake of safety and uniformity we adopted the Colt revolver, which is the standard small arm of the United States Army. Chairman WALSH. And those are kept where? Mr. HARPER. In this same place. Chairman WALSH. Have you trains equipped for police service? Mr. HARPER. Any what? Chairman WALSH. Any trains or cars or engines? Mr. HARPER. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. You have nothing of that kind? Mr. HARPER. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. There was a reference made to Lucknow, the Lucknow encampment. Mr. HARPER. Yes. Chairman WALSH. Explain that, if you will, please, Mr. Harper, without being asked any direct questions. Mr. HARPER. A policeman is on duty 24 hours a day, and 25 hours if possible-I have been on duty 25-and he is not docked if he is off a day, nor is he granted a vacation for extra time on duty. We believe that our policemen are exceptional men, and we try to treat them as such; so that Lucknow encampment was an arrangement with the company to give these men a vacation to get them together to become better acquainted with each other, particularly the captains. Chairman WALSH. Did they consist of your uniformed police, those with the Lucknow encampment? Mr. HARPER. Those with uniforms had such equipment with them, and those who did not have them went in civilian clothes. Chairman WALSH. How many were there? Mr. HARPER. We split it. All told, we had 340 men, half the first two days and the other half the next two days. Chairman WALSH. Proceed, now, Mr. Harper, please, where I interrupted you. Just It was Mr. HARPER. I was going to give you the number of uniformed men. Chairman WALSH. I do not care for that; just complete your answer. give us your answer about the encampment-as to the whole matter. reported to our investigator that the Lucknow encampment was held at a time when an agreement was being entered into between some of the union organizations, or being settled by some union organization with the officers; and they were encamped and drilled at a place where they could be seen by the people going back and forth, and the inference was that it was being done for the purpose of intimidation or having some effect on the making of the contract; did you understand it that way? Mr. HARPER. It is possible that something was going on with some of the train-service men. There is something going on practically every day; but I pay no attention to it. That does not enter into my manipulation of the police service. Your other statement, that these men were gathered at a point where they could be noticed by travelers or the men Chairman WALSH (interrupting). That is not my statement. Mr. HARPER. Anyway, that is all wrong, because they were camped in the most obscure place that you could find. They were sent out there for two or three days' vacation, and they were encamped along an old canal bed south of the Pennsylvania line, where they were not seen from the railroad; in an old cornfield, and this old canal bed has a row of trees down both sides. Chairman WALSH. And the assembling of them at that point at that time had no significance, so far as any labor trouble was concerned, so far as you know? Mr. HARPER. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. What date was that? Mr. HARPER. June, 1913, I think; I do not know positively. Chairman WALSH. NOW, Mr. Harper, unless you have some further statement you desire to make you will be excused permanently. Mr. HARPER. I have nothing to say, except to reiterate Chairman WALSH (interrupting). With all due respect, do not reiterate. Mr. HARPER. I have nothing further to say. Chairman WALSH. Very well; you will be excused. Mr. Auston. TESTIMONY OF MR. J. R. T. AUSTON. Chairman WALSH. State your name, please. Mr. AUSTON. J. R. T. Auston. Chairman WALSH. Where do you live? Mr. AUSTON. At Philadelphia, Pa. Chairman WALSH. What is your business? Mr. AUSTON. President of the Order of Railroad Telegraphers, Dispatchers, Agents, and Signalmen. Chairman WALSH. How long have you occupied that official position? Chairman WALSH. Are you a telegrapher; were you originally a telegrapher? Chairman WALSH. How did you happen to come to the Minneapolis Convention? Mr. AUSTON. The Minneapolis convention of May, 1907? Mr. AUSTON. I was in the employ of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad Co., but previous to the convention I was with the Western Union at Denver, and took a leave of absence and went to Minneapolis as a visitor or member in good standing, with up-to-date card to June 30, 1907, which represented 20 continuous years of membership. Chairman WALSH. Did you pay your expenses to that convention? Mr. AUSTON. Yes; my own expenses and those of my wife. Chairman WALSH. Did anybody pay the expenses-any of your expenses during the period of that convention? Or any of the expenses of that convention, that you know of? Mr. AUSTON. No, sir. Chairman WALSH. What salary did you receive during the early part of the existence of the organization? Mr. AUSTON. At Minneapolis, when the division or split, as we call it, occurred, I was asked my rate and I told them I could get along, I thought, on $150, and they thought they could not pay that, and they were all friends of mine, and I said, "Make it $100, and I will come and help you anyway," and my salary to 1910, if I remember right, was $100; then I believe it was raised to $125, and now it is $150 a month. Chairman WALSH. Has your salary always been paid by the members of the organization? Mr. AUSTON. My salary has always been paid, when it was paid, out of the revenues of the organization. Chairman WALSH. I gather from what you say that sometimes your salary was not paid. |