Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes; but at the time of the 1903 strike they had become a part of the United Mine Workers.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Which strike?

Mr. HAYWOOD. In 1903.

Commissioner GARRETSON. But the same agencies were arrayed against both crafts, both the metal and the coal?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Oh, yes; they had the Mine Owners' Association.
Commissioner GARRETSON. That embraced all of the mine owners?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Have you any definite knowledge or data as to when the miners separated into two separate associations, if they ever have separated?

Mr. HAYWOOD. I do not think they ever have separated.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Did you hear the statement that was made by Maj. Broughton before this commission to the effect-and Maj. Broughton, you remember, was in charge of the militia in the field?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON. And that he was also under retainer by the Coal Mining Association of Cripple Creek, and that he had no connection with any other mining class in Colorado during this period; did you hear that?

Mr. HAYWOOD. No, I did not hear that; but I think it is true beyond any question of doubt that they were all members of the Citizens' Alliance in 1903. Commissioner GARRETSON. And that they were furnishing the medium of communication, even if there was different existing groups?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Absolutely.

Commissioner GARRETSON. That is all.

Mr. HAYWOOD. I met the members of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co. in the senate chamber and the assembly hall before the mines and the mining committee, and they were contending then against an eight-hour law.

Chairman WALSH. I have three questions that I have been requested to ask you that have been sent up, and I wish you would answer them as briefly as you can. One is, Do you not consider the exploitation of children in industry under the present system a form of violence of a very insidious and brutal sort? Mr. HAYWOOD. I most certainly do. It is only one of the terrible violences that are practiced by the capitalistic class.

Chairman WALSH. Then there is another question: Will I. W. W.ism do away with crime and criminals? If not, how will you organize your society to protect the well-behaved many against the vicious few?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Industrialism will do away with crime and criminals, as 95 per cent of the crime to-day is crime against property. Abolishing the wage system-abolishing private property-will remove 95 per cent of the crime. Chairman WALSH. NOW, I have not here a formal request from some gentleman, through a letter. He says that during the week prominent lawyers and sociologists have been asked a categorical question under the first section of the questionnaire, namely, as to the prevalent attitude of courts in labor cases. I thought your whole testimony was directed to that end, but nevertheless, if you have anything further to say on that, I would be very glad to have you say it. What is your view of the prevalent attitude of courts in labor cases?

Mr. HAYWOOD. I think, Mr. Chairman, that inciting the strikes, showing that the militia have been used in nearly every one; that many, many thousands of men have been arrested without warrant; that thousands have come before the courts, and, although warrants have been issued, they were discharged. It seems to me that in answer to that question it is safe to say that the courts are used, as a general rule, in favor of the capitalistic class.

Shairman WALSH. Now, there is one other question: Were you present during the testimony of Judge Cullen, formerly judge of the New York court of appeals? Mr. HAYWOOD, No.

Chairman WALSH. I understood you had a comment to make upon that from the field, as it were, as one who had been upon the ground. He discussed the matter from a legal standpoint.

Mr. HAYWOOD. I have the speech made by Judge Cullen, and there are abstracts from his speech which I seem, in a way, to agree with.

Chairman WALSH. What are they?

Mr. HAYWOOD. The militia and the use of the militia in the field.

Chairman WALSH. Did your observation in the field concur with the conclusions reached by Judge Cullen in his speech, which may be said to have been reiterated by him on the witness stand?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Why, yes. I saw the militia at work; I saw them as I told you, and the militia was ordered to bring in three prisoners, and the militia absolutely refused to obey the order, because the court was at that time favorable to the strikers.

Chairman WALSH. As a matter of industrial unrest, does that sort of handling of men cause or does it not cause the most bitter resentment?

Mr. HAYWOOD. The working class of this country have looked upon the courts with a great deal of awe and respect in the past; that is not true now. They look upon the courts as a tool of the employing class.

Chairman WALSH. Do the workers, as a body, have the frame of mind expressed by Judge Cullen (with reference to the judges as a class when this form of what you might call legal oppression is practiced upon them) in his speech as follows [reads]:

“The governor might imprison or execute the members of the legislature or even the learned judges of the supreme court themselves. Frankly, I do not regard such a danger as likely, for I have great confidence in the common sense of the American people, and I imagine that if such a course were attempted not even the devotion of those learned judges to the principles of law they had declared would induce them to voluntarily surrender life or liberty, and that in their resistance they would be supported by the mass of the people."

Is that the attitude of mind the workers have-that when their rights are invaded by the force of the military power they feel they ought to resist, and that the most of the American people would support them if they understood it? Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. So, from your standpoint in the field, and Judge Cullen's standpoint from the court of appeals bench, there is no disagreement on that proposition?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Mr. Walsh, during the Cripple Creek strike of 1903, 1904, and 1905 the miners of that district would have killed every militiaman in the district if it were not for the fact that they believed the people of the United States did not understand it; if it were not for the fact that Roosevelt was in the presidential chair at that time, and there was a 10-company post of soldiers just outside of Denver. They knew their rights were being invaded, and they were willing to fight for their rights.

Chairman WALSH. Just as Judge Cullen says the people would fight if they attempted the same violence on the judges of the court?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes; the American people have always fought for their rights, and they are going to fight for them again.

Chairman WALSH. Commissioner O'Connell has some questions to ask. Commissioner O'CONNELL. That end of the table [indicating] have brought out the position of the independent workmen of the world so plainly that it is not necessary to discuss that further.

I want to get some information in regard to the citation of yesterday, in which you spoke of a man in the Wheatland hop fields that was branded with the letters I. W. W. with a hot cigar.

Mr. HAYWOOD. That was in San Diego.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Can you give the particulars of that, with the names, and so forth?

Chairman WALSH. We have that in our record.

Mr. HAYWOOD. Did you embody that in your report, Mr. Weinstock? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No; that circumstance occurred after I made my investigation.

Chairman WALSH. There is an investigation and it is in our report, because I read it; the name of the man was B. L. Wrightman, and he was taken outside of the city, it is alleged, and his clothing stripped from him, and with a lighted cigar they attempted to burn the letters "I .W. W." on his person; that part of it is in the record.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And that was after you made your investigation?
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Yes; after I made my investigation.

Mr. HAYWOOD. Was Nicolage (?) killed at that time?
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I do not remember.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. I will look it up.

Now, Mr. Haywood, I feel that you will agree with me that the ideas that you have just outlined to us are not going to become operative right away? Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. It is not going to take place within the next month or the next year or several years; in the meantime we must be doing some

thing, and this commission was created by Congress for the purpose of ascertaining what the underlying causes of industrial unrest are, the principal causes, and to make some recommendations to Congress. That would imply that Congress would be interested in doing something if we made certain recommendations right away for the relief of the people, particularly the working people.

Now, if you were a member of this commission, Mr. Haywood, what would you be in favor of recommending to Congress to take up immediately to relieve the people? What would you advise this commission to recommend?

Mr. HAYWOOD. I think I would advise, to meet the needs of the people, employment, work, such as the Government could do-reclamation, reforesting stations—such work as would meet the needs of the unemployed; that is, just as remedial measures.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. You consider, then, that unemployment, or temporarily so, is one of the underlying causes of industrial unrest?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Certainly, when a man is out of work, when he has no means of obtaining food for his family, that certainly is a cause of unrest. That is a cause of the present discontent largely.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And would also imply, as I take it from your answer to a question a while ago, that idle hands beget crime; if there is steady employment, crime decreases.

Mr. HAYWOOD. That is always true; crime always increases in the winter when unemployment is greatest and suffering most intense.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. What would you do in the case of the itinerant worker, the casual employee who only has employment for a certain period of the year, for instance, picking fruit or cutting ice in the winter or doing logging in the summer, and all that?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Of course, I think that all of these people should be organized, and we are going on to that end. We establish what we call the organized workers, and we will meet the vast body of workers employed in the harvest fields.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Would you have the Government arrange for the carrying of people from one industry to the other, where they were wanted, without cost to the workmen?

Mr. HAYWOOD. I think that workmen should be given free transportation; I don't mean in box cars, as has been suggested; I don't know by whom, that are fixed up, they ride that way now, but they should be given free transportation in proper conveyances in looking for work.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. The job and the man ought to be brought together by the Government itself, without cost to the man or the job?

Mr. HAYWOOD. That may be a remedial remedy suggested by the commission. Commissioner O'CONNELL. That is incidental to the unemployment, and what you believe to be the fundamental cause of industrial unrest. Have you in mind any other general question that might be effective in this direction, that this commission might suggest to Congress as a remedy? Of course, I don't mean that healthy unrest, we don't want that, but we want the unrest that creates the criminals and makes paupers and makes men helpless, that sort of unrest. Do you think of any other idea you might suggest to the commission? I am sure we would appreciate it, notwithstanding we probably feel that you are so imbued with your Utopian ideas, of things that they would not modernize down to the affairs of to-day, that are effective to-day and tomorrow?

Mr. HAYWOOD. Really, Mr. O'Connell, I don't think that I presented any Utopian ideas, I talked for the necessities of life, food, clothing, shelter, and amusement. We can talk of Utopia afterwards. The greatest need is employment.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. You think unemployment, insufficient wage, long hours of labor, employment of children, employment of women beyond reasonable hours, and at low wages, the unfair application of laws by the courts, the unfair attitude of the courts as to the equity or opportunity of the poor man as against the rich man, to secure justice, all those things point toward unrest? Mr. HAYWOOD. They certainly do; they are the things that make unrest. Commissioner O'CONNELL. They are the things that make for unrest? Mr. HAYWOOD. Yes, sir.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And those are the things you think this commission ought to interest itself in at this time?

Mr. HAYWOOD. If there was any possibility of Congress remedying these evils, I think this commission has a duty to perform in recommending such changes. Commissioner O'CONNELL. That is all.

Chairman WALSH. That is all, Mr. Haywood, and you will be excused permanently. We thank you.

Mr. HAYWOOD. I have here the preamble of the Industrial Workers of the World that I wanted to make a part of the record, I would like to read it in. Chairman WALSH. We will be very glad to have it put in the record.

Mr. HAYWOOD (reading). "Mr. Chairman, in view of the attempt on the part of Commissioner Weinstock yesterday to create an erroneous impression relative to the methods and aims of the I. W. W., and in view of the further fact that Commissioner Weinstock read into the record in the forms of questions propounded to me portions of a biased report on the I. W. W., prepared some years ago by himself in California, I desire at this time to read for the enlightenment of the commission the very brief preamble of the Industrial Workers of the World.

"I. W. W. PREAMBLE.

"The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. "There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people, and the few who make up the employing class have all the good things of life.

"Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the earth, and abolish the wage system.

"We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trades-unions unable to cope with the ever-growing power of the employing class.

"The trade-unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping to defeat one another in wage wars.

"Moreover the trade-unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.

"These conditions can be changed and the interests of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all.

"Instead of the conservative motto, 'A fair day's wage for a fair day's work,' we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, ‘Abolition of the wage system.'

"It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. "The army of production must be organized, not only for the everyday struggle with the capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown.

"By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of a new society within the shell of the old."

Chairman WALSH. Dr. Goodnow, please take the stand.

TESTIMONY OF DR. FRANK JOHNSON GOODNOW.

Chairman WALSH. State your name, please.

Dr. GOODNOW. Frank Johnson Goodnow.

Chairman WALSH. And your residence.

Dr. GOODNOW. Baltimore.

Chairman WALSH. And your present position.

Dr. GOODNOW. President of Johns Hopkins University.

Chairman WALSH. I believe that there has been submitted to you a short outline?

Dr. GOODNOW. Yes, sir; this morning, just as I came here. Chairman WALSH. I would like to have you address yourself to that. Would you be kind enough to take them up as they were given to you categorically and give us the benefit of your experience and advice and opinion?

Dr. GOODNOW. The question is: "As the result of your experience and study. has your attention been directed in any large degree to the equipment of judges to consider the social and economic questions brought before them in what are commonly known as labor cases?" Now, my experience with regard to this matter is the experience of a teacher of law for a considerable period, and I would say that there is no particular attention given in the requirements for

admission to the bar to securing any practical qualifications on the part of judges to consider these questions. That is, the ordinary admission requirements to the bar only demand, even at the utmost, a high-school education. No particular attention is paid to economic questions in the high schools or in the bar examination. There is thus no attention paid to such educational qualifications as might be of advantage in equipping judges to decide those questions. Whether a judge is or is not equipped from an educational point of view to determine these questions is very largely a question of accident. He may have studied economic conditions, or he may have studied the history of industry in connection with a college course, if he had that prior to his taking the course in the law school, or he may have as the result of private reading equipped himself for a decision of those cases.

Chairman WALSH. Have you any suggestion which you care to make to the commission with regard to the methods by which judges, and lawyers from which judges come, perhaps might be induced to give proper attention to such social and economic questions with regard to the machinery by which judges might be given proper knowledge of the economic and social facts involved in such cases?

Dr. GOODNOW. The only way that possibly might be secured would be by changing the examination or qualification for entrance to the legal profession. Chairman WALSH. I might state that I had in mind when we were getting up these outlines, for instance, you find these large Government questions given into the hands of commissions; for instance, that these questions were being relegated to an administrative board to take into consideration the facts that might be elicited surrounding industries in order to determine whether or not there is unfair competition in industries, with a right in the first instance to so declare with the supervising power by the court; and in that way it occurred to me that perhaps some of these particular questions with which the judges were not equipped that some similar question might be worked out, as far as industry was concerned.

Dr. GOODNOW. Personally I don't see any way in which you can secure those qualifications, so far as they can be secured by educational requirements, without absolutely changing the entrance requirements to the bar. It is our system in this country, different from some other countries, to choose our judges entirely from the bar; and the judges are not educated for the position of judges as, for example, in Germany. They are simply chosen from the bar, and therefore you have to depend upon the character of the bar or the equipment of the bar for the kind of a man you get as judge.

Chairman WALSH. This question, as I have heard it all over the country, and of the bar playing such a conspicuous part in it, and so much criticisni being made, I will say from both sides, what would your advice be as an educator as to the proper approach of the Government to meet the question?

Dr. GOODNOw. As I say, by absolutely changing the qualifications for entrance to the bar. That is, instead of providing, as is the case now, a mere high-school education, which does not include any study whatever into the history of industrial or economic conditions, and after the high-school education a purely technical education in the law, which does not include, as a general thing, any study of economics, I think if you will look over the questions for entrance to the bar you never would find a question of economies. It is questions of a purely technical legal knowledge of the lawyer. I don't see how under those conditions you can expect, except as the result of side reading or an accidental preparation, that a man may have-I don't see how you can expect to equip a man who has no practical knowledge of these economic conditions which, as you say, have become so important.

Chairman WALSH. Have you observed, Doctor, in your reading the late developments on which suggestions have been made to the court by economists or students in this field, for instance, in the Oregon case?

Dr. GOODNOW. You mean suggestions that were made that came up through Mr. Brandeis?

Chairman WALSH. Yes, sir.

Dr. GOODNOW. It was only because he had a much better training than the ordinary man that those questions were presented.

Chairman WALSH. Could any scheme be devised toward the proper education by which advice could be given to judges? Somewhat in the nature as it was given by Mr. Brandeis, for instance, that it could be submitted by experts when a question was up involving industry and the minimum wage and, for instance, such matters as affect the workers-physically affect them-that it could be submitted in some such way as was done by Mr. Brandeis?