Senator CURTIS. Here is one of the little bills (indicating]. I do not know whether this is the one used or not. I judge it is, from the picture. It might be put in evidence for whatever it is worth. Of course, I know nothing personally about this situation, and do not pretend to.

(The Yucatanian currency here submitted by Senator Curtis is as follows):

Mr. HATCH. We introduce that. That is the scrip they used to pay the peon for the sisal.

Mr. MAYER. I want to ask one or two more questions, Mr. Hatch. Mr. HATCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAYER. Do you know what commodities this Mid-City Co. handles?

Mr. HATCH. It handles oils and various merchandise used by the penitentiaries oils, grease, and different commodities.

Mr. MAYER. Does it sell to and deal with the penitentiaries only? Mr. HATCH. Well, not exclusively. It deals with other concerns, but more especially with penitentiaries.

Mr. MAYER. That is, the larger volume of its business is done with the penitentiaries?

Mr. HATCH. Yes.

Mr. MAYER. And that includes not merely sisal, but grease, oil, and other merchandise?

Mr. HATCH. Other merchandise.

Senator GRONNA. Immediately before we took a recess I made a statement which, it has been suggested to me, might be misunderstood. I said something with reference to the prison-made twine to the effect that it is in a way regulatory of prices. Of course, I meant in that immediate community. I did not want anybody to understand that these prisons control the price of twine. It would be silly to make such a statement, because I gather from the statement just handed to us by Senator Curtis that in North Dakota the prison used somewhat over 5,000 bales--5,748 bales, to be accurate--which would be somewhat over 2,000,000 pounds. Well, I suppose we used more than 20,000,000 pounds in North Dakota. In Minnesota, according to the figures given to us by Senator Curtis, they have

bought, or did buy in 1915, 40,000 bales, which would be about 15,000,000 pounds. That would be hardly enough for the State of Minnesota.

The idea I wanted to convey was this, that the competition we have had in twine in our immediate community has been the competition that has been created by reason of the fact that these prisons have manufactured twine. And as a rule they have made the prices lower than the prices of any machine firm or anyone else who had twine for sale.

The CHAIRMAN. They have been positively beneficial to the people of their States?

Senator GRONNA. Oh, absolutely; yes.

Mr. MAYER. Senator Gronna, do you know what the penitentiary of your State has been paying for sisal?

Senator GRONNA. No; I do not.

Mr. MAYER. In other words, I asked the question merely to compare, if I can, the price it has paid with the price that the International and the Plymouth Co. have been paying in Yucatan.

Senator GRONNA. I suggested to the chairman that we notify the warden of the prison, Mr. Frank S. Talcott, whom I know very well, that if he would like to come and give his testimony

The CHAIRMAN. I have requested the clerk to notify him.

Mr. MAYER. This is very useful information, I think, We would like to know of whom these penitentiary commissioners have been purchasing this sisal; where they bought it, and how much they have paid. Because if the Plymouth Co. and the International have been able to buy sisal in Yucatan for 2 or 3 cents-and I am told that the testimony of these farmers will show that at times they got 3 cents and under-and your penitentiary commission had to pay 5 cents, you were at a disadvantage in the purchase of sisal to the extent of 1. 2, or 3 cents in comparison with the International and the Plymouth Co., a differential which has now been eradicated.

Senator GRONNA. I will say that I have no knowledge of what the price has been to the penitentiary. I know, however, in a general way, what the prices have been when they sold the twine.

Mr. MAYER. We are going to give you some official and thoroughly accurate information [exhibiting two volumes produced by Dr. Rendon]. This information is official and not made by us, giving you the sales and the prices at which sold-an official record made in Progreso. It gives the names of the purchasers, the amount purchased each month, and the prices.

Senator GRONNA. I think it is important that we should have that. Mr. MAYER. It won't go by guesswork, gentlemen. This book goes back to 1900

The CHAIRMAN. Can you describe the book, to identify it?

Mr. MAYER. It is a book marked, "Agencia Comercial, Sociedad Anonima; José Rosada, director," which contains an official epitomenot guesswork, gentlemen-of every bale that was sold, to whom sold, and the price.

The CHAIRMAN. For what years?

Mr. MAYER. 1900 to December 31, 1915.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee can not be expected to publish that whole book.

Mr. SPENCER. We have extracted it, Senator, and calculated it from kilos into pounds, and the price in Mexican currency.

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest that you submit the extract, and then let the gentlemen on the other side compare it to see that you have done it accurately.

Mr. MAYER. The man who protests too much sometimes overdoes it. We can assure you that we are overkeen to have the committee get the real, fundamental, rugged underlying truth, not by hearsay. Necessarily hearsay information will get into a hearing of this kind, but here is an authoritative, analytical statement of every bale that has been sold, to whom sold, and the price. Of course, I recognize that is a Herculean job for the committee to go through these books, but we will put them at the command of the committee, and we will make statistical deductions for both sides.

The CHAIRMAN. I suggest you leave the books and let us compare them ourselves if we wish.

Mr. FISHER. Just a moment, before we go on with Mr. Dinkins. This book which has been introduced is really in two volumesMr. MAYER. Two volumes.

Mr. FISHER. And the documents contained in it are in Spanish, are they not?

Mr. MAYER. They are.

Mr. FISHER. And you say that it gives the price of the purchases made by each one?

Mr. MAYER. No; the average price for each month.

Mr. FISHER. That was not quite the statement. Let us get that correct, because the committee might have a misunderstanding. By examining the documents you will see, gentlemen, that it gives the amount of the purchase in quantities, the number of bales, and the exporters are given on the other side. They are not necessarily the purchasers; they are the persons who export. This is a record taken, I assume, from the exportations at the port. It relates only to exports. It gives the name of the exporter in the first column; the name of the consignee in the second column; the destination, as, for instance, Mobile, New Orleans, or what not, in the third column; the name of the steamship in the fourth column; the number of bales in the fifth column; and the amount in weight in the sixth and last column. Then below it gives "for exportation" the number of packages.

Mr. SPENCER. That is a recapitulation.

Mr. FISHER. Yes. In the above you will notice it starts out with the exporter; for instance, Avelino Montes, or whoever it may be, and then comes the number of different shipments, and then below it is bunched together to give the totals. Then it gives the amount exported between the 1st and 30th of the month-in that month of that year as compared with the previous years; first, the exportation of a given year, and they follow with the previous years, the number of bales, and the weight.

Mr. SPENCER. And the price.

Mr. FISHER. Yes; the value of the total exportation. Then below that, in this one, it gives the amount of stock on hand. Then it gives the entries into the port by railroad during the month and the entries into the port by vessels proceeding from various other ports. Now, there are, as you see, no prices except that total price-the value for exportation.

Mr. SPENCER. It does not say, "value for exportation"--" of the exportation."

Mr. FISHER. Yes; of course it is the price given when the stuff is exported.

Mr. SPENCER. It means the price paid in Progreso. That is what they tell me; I do not know any more about it than you do.

Mr. FISHER. All I tell you is that it does not say so in the document. Mr. MAYER. It so states in the document. We will show that by the witnesses who will testify.

Mr. BAYLEY. As a shipper for 25 years, may I make an explanation of that, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. State who you are, please.

STATEMENT OF MR. EDWARD B. BAYLEY, OF HENRY W. PEABODY & CO., BOSTON, MASS.

Mr. BAYLEY. Mr. Chairman, my name is Edward B. Bayley, of Henry W. Peabody & Co., who have had an office in Yucatan for 25 years, and whose agent Mr. Arturo Peirce is. These statistics are made up monthly. The names of the shippers and the consignees as shown by the bills of lading and the destination of the steamers and the names of the steamers and the amount of bales are accurate. The weight is largely estimated, for the buyers' returns are often not added up until after the shipment has left the port-until after the steamer has sailed. It is merely a quantity put on to comply with the regulations. The price is also purely estimated. Progreso is not a market for the sale of hemp; Merida is a market for the sale of hemp. The Agencia Comercial is merely a shipping house, and in order to complete their statistics they throw in any price that seems good to them as representing the average price for the month. It has no other value than a mere guess as to what the price of hemp was for that month.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you know that, Mr. Bayley?

Mr. BAYLEY. From our experience, sir, of 25 years.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been there yourself for that long?

Mr. BAYLEY. I have been down there twice; not during that period.

I went there to establish the agency in the first place.
Mr. MAYER. How long ago?

Mr. BAYLEY. I went there to establish our agency in 1890. In 1891 I went down there to establish our office in charge of Mr. Arturo Peirce, who has been there ever since.

The CHAIRMAN. How long did you remain there during those two visits?

Mr. BAYLEY. A few weeks each time. Since then, our business being to be closely in touch with prices, we have noticed that these pieces have had little relation to the actual market price in Merida.

Mr. SPENCER. Our information, on the contrary, is that these prices are made up from the official documents which these people turn into the Treasury, on which they pay their taxes. Therefore, it is the price at which they sold their sisal, because the tax is based upon that price.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that for the information of the committee there ought to be at least a sample page put in the record. You have a synopsis ?

Mr. SPENCER. A compilation of that, Mr. Chairman, which gives the month and the year, the number of bales of sisal exported from Progreso during that month, and the average price per pound in Mexican currency in Progreso, beginning, as you will see, with January, 1900. The prices in these sheets pasted in this book are in Mexican currency per kilo. We have now reduced it on this exhibit to Mexican currency per pound.

Senator GRONNA. You have taken it from this particular page here?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir.

Senator GRONNA. Suppose we have that page printed in connection with this?

Mr. SPENCER. I only took certain information from this page, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN.. That goes through a number of years?

Mr. SPENCER. All the years.

The CHAIRMAN. One page would be enough, would it not?

Mr. MAYER. Let me say, we would not have gone into this had it not been for these side questions.

Senator GRONNA. If the tax is paid on henequen, is that based upon the quantity of hemp or on the price?

Mr. MAYER. On the price; the law expressly so provides.

Mr. ORTH. To which tax do you refer?

Mr. SPENCER. The tax imposed by the Government of Yucatan in the decree creating the Comision Reguladora.

Mr. ORTH. I understand that tax is based on the price of hemp? Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ORTH. I shall testify as to that later.

Dr. RENDON. I have here a copy of the decrees, translated.
The CHAIRMAN. We will put that in later.

Mr. FISHER. I assume that these books, if we are going to have an abstract of them, will be left here?

The CHAIRMAN. That is exactly what I was saying; so that you gentlemen can examine and compare them.

Mr. FISHER. I call your attention at this time to the fact that, of course, even if the contention of counsel is correct, it would not throw any light whatever upon the price paid by a particular purchaser. It is the average price of the total amount.

Mr. SPENCER. That is it. It is the average price. You probably paid less.

Mr. FISHER. Of course, we must always assume the probabilities are against us, otherwise you would not have any case.

(The summary referred to by Mr. Spencer is as follows:)