Senator BARTLETT. I mean the crewmembers.

Mr. JENSEN. No; because they have agreed to handle their fish this way. When they go out on a boat that delivers to the cooperative, they have to agree to deliver there or have their fish handled this way, so it's of their own choosing.

Senator BARTLETT. Does anyone ever slip you a bonus over and above that which might go to the crewmembers?

Mr. JENSEN. No; not the cooperative setup. We all share alike. Senator BARTLETT. Bonuses are not paid by anyone?

Mr. JENSEN. Not in the long-line fishing, no.

Senator BARTLETT. You think the co-op plan is very good?

Mr. JENSEN. We are very satisfied.

Senator BARTLETT. Have you ever heard of any dissatisfaction on the long-line fishery on the part of crewmembers?

Mr. JENSEN. Only on outside cooperative members; yes.
Senator BARTLETT. What do they complain about?

Mr. JENSEN. They would certainly like to get out and get higher prices, of course, but I am strictly speaking of the cooperative itself, since I am a member, and that is the way I handle all my products,

I mean.

Senator BARTLETT. Just what are the advantages to you as a vessel owner of belonging to this co-op?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, it certainly is a blessing not to have to go out and bargain for prices every time we come in. If we had to bargain and deal with buyers on every trip

Senator BARTLETT. Every load?

Mr. JENSEN. This way we certainly eliminate that problem, and we expect to get as much or more as fishermen that sell on the outside. This is determined by the efficiency of the organization, of course. Senator BARTLETT. Has the co-op always in your opinion dealt fairly with you?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, yes. We are very satisfied with it. If it doesn't, we will certainly do something about the people who are managing our business for us. They can be very rapidly replaced.

Senator BARTLETT. How would you replace them?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, request the directors to replace them, of course. Senator BARTLETT. How many directors have you?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, we have a board of 12 members in Seattle, and we have an advisory group here.

Senator BARTLETT. Twelve directors who live right in Seattle? Mr. JENSEN. Yes. And we have members, and we recommend to them the way we'd like to have this thing run, and our requests are usually

Senator BARTLETT. Are there any Alaska members of the board? Mr. JENSEN. Well, there are some that are members that fish. The bulk of the members that are on this board fish in Alaska and they are up here.

Senator BARTLETT. Do any of them live here?

Mr. JENSEN. No, they don't live here. They are summer residents. But we aren't able to have members down there since the board is in Seattle. We let them take care of it.

Senator BARTLETT. Do you think this gives the Alaska fisherman the voice he ought to have in the affairs of the co-op when there is no resident member of the board of directors?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, yes, we do, since we have our own board here that recommends to them, and our requests are always taken care of. Senator BARTLETT. They follow your recommendations?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, absolutely. We are the major producers. They just about have to.

Senator BARTLETT. You are the major producers of halibut?
Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. But you are not the major producers of all fish products that are handled by the co-op, are you?

Mr. JENSEN. No, but people in Alaska are though.

Senator BARTLETT. How does the halibut fishery rate in the co-op in order of importance?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, it's probably about second after shrimp right

now.

Senator BARTLETT. Shrimp is leading?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Where does the shrimp come from would you guess?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, the shrimp is processed in Seward, Alaska.
Senator BARTLETT. That is No. 1 now?

Mr. JENSEN. That is No. 1 in volume, yes.

Senator BARTLETT. In volume?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. In dollar value?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes, I would say in dollar value too.

Senator BARTLETT. Well, when you deliver your halibut here does the co-op have a cold storage facility?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, these are handled in public plants, yes, facilities. We don't have our own.

Senator BARTLETT. Does the co-op have a man here who notes the amount of fish you land?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, yes, we have managers that take care of our business in shore plants.

Senator BARTLETT. In every port?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Foster, do you have any questions?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

We have had some testimony before on the record that indicated that in many instances the so-called vessel owners actually didn't own their vessels, that they were vessel owners that were either tied very closely to the cannery or they were vessel owners who were deeply in debt and with mortgages on their vessels, and that this made them depend in part on the cannery or whoever had provided the finances to purchase the vessel.

I wonder if you could say something about the status of the vessel owner here in Petersburg. Do most vessel owners actually own their vessels, or are they tied up with some type of financial arrangement?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, I'd say the bulk of the vessel owners here have individual ownership, and there are a few that have ties with the bigger companies, but I think this is due largely to the predominant halibut fishery here, since the companies that deal in the halibut do not have facilities to buy or have vessels operated by captains that don't own their vessels.

Mr. FOSTER. When you sell to the co-op here and other people sell to the co-op, I presume that this gives the co-op the possibility of holding the fish until they feel like it's an opportune time to sell.

In other words, other fishermen come in and they have a load of fish. They try to search around to find the best place to sell their fish at the highest price. They are under quite a bit of pressure to go ahead and sell them rather quickly. And this gives them what might be considered a weak bargaining position because they have got to do something.

Whereas, as a member of the co-op, you can bring your fish in, give them to the co-op, they give you part payment, and then the co-op can hold the fish off the market for a period of time or take advantage of the sales more effectively, and it strengthens the bargaining position through the co-op of both the crew and the boatowners. Would that be true?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, first I would like to state that we don't sell to the co-op. We deliver to it. Because we own the organization ourselves.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes.

Mr. JENSEN. And to a certain extent it is a sort of pleasure to deliver your fish and let someone else worry about it from then on. But the companies, the fish companies, have the same chance that we have to hold the fish and sell it at the best possible time.

So there is certainly not too much of an advantage that way. But we feel to a certain extent the advantage we have, our best advantage, would be in the efficiency of our organization. That is what we'd like to try to make a little extra profit from.

It isn't that our organization can hold it longer than the other; the buyers and the companies have the same chance. And probably more have finances and sometimes they are better able to do it than we are. But if we can grow enough and be able to control a certain segment of the quota, that's our only chance of bargaining and being able to get extra for it.

Mr. FOSTER. As a boatowner, aren't you more likely to get a higher price by being able to deliver to your co-op in unison with other vessel owners when they deliver and then as a bloc are able to go onto the market with the cooperative representatives speaking for you, among others, and bargaining, as it were, for a more acceptable price? Aren't you in a stronger bargaining position?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes. This is one of our objectives, yes. This is what we hope to achieve in the end, yes.

Mr. FOSTER. One other question. Does your co-op include the fishermen, or is it just the co-op composed of the vessel owners?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, the co-op is mostly a vessel owners' project, but we are doing this with the permission of the crews. We can't get people to go out with us unless they agree with us in handling it or doing it this way.

Mr. FOSTER. They don't have any vote though? The crew? Mr. JENSEN. Not on the board of directors, no. But they certainly have a voice in this local organization here. Very much so.

Mr. FOSTER. Oh, they do?

Mr. JENSEN. Well, they certainly can urge us, and they have membership in our local organization, yes.

Mr. FOSTER. So the crew does have membership in your local organization, your local co-op?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, sure. They have a voice in determining how this thing is to be run, yes.

Mr. FOSTER. When your local organization of the co-op has a meeting here, then, you have representatives from various vessel owners there and crewmembers are there?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, yes.

Mr. FOSTER. And the question comes up as to what you should do on some matter, and this is just openly discussed by all concerned? Mr. JENSEN. Absolutely.

Mr. FOSTER. Everyone has the same vote, and decision is made, and recommendation is then passed on?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes. We feel very little need for provisions of bargaining. That's for sure, since we're all in on this together.

Mr. FOSTER. Actually, under this 1934 act, which I understand you are organized under, it does speak of not only vessel owners being participants but also they say fishermen. And I think it is proper to include fishermen in these organizations.

There has been apparently a district court case, a Federal district court case, suggesting that the act should not be interpreted to permit fishermen in. But in a number of instances they are.

There is apparently some question, legal question, as to whether or not fishermen should be permitted into co-ops. In many instances they are, and they are here.

And when they are, this, of course, does mean that they participate in the co-op, can have the co-op to bargain, so to speak, with the buyer or with the canner for the price of the fish in terms of the act. Thank you.

Senator BARTLETT. Gordon, what is the longest you have had to wait for full return in terms of money on the fish you have delivered? Mr. JENSEN. Well, see, we usually get our full return by June of the following year.

Senator BARTLETT. June of the following year?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Does this subject the vessel owners to financial crisis now and then?

Mr. JENSEN. No, it's just a problem. The biggest problem is the first year you join an organization like this, you see, because the first year you only get your advance, you see, and then next year you have the advance from the year before and the final advance from the year before and your first advance from the year you're fishing. You get along fine. Just the first hurdle is the worst.

Senator BARTLETT. Then Ed Lockin would hope perhaps there would be a lot of first-year men in the organization that would have to go to him for carryover money?

Mr. JENSEN. I suppose it would be a good deal for him all right. But we are usually a fairly stable group here in town, and I think we don't have many problems.

Senator BARTLETT. I think that's an understatement. You don't have many problems here in town.

Gordon, coming down to the bill itself would you care to make a comment whether you are for it or "agin" it?

Now, the salmon industry down at Seattle had an attorney appear, and they gave a very learned legal and historical paper and said they were going to reserve judgment on a position regarding the bill until a later date. Do you have your mind made up now?

Mr. JENSEN. Oh, I'd say that we're certainly not too acquainted with this thing either, but we have had some experience with what might come from a thing like this, like coast wise negotiations for certain types of fish, and we would certainly frown on such a thing, because the bargaining is being handled by people that are certainly not very close to our organization or our fishing problems. That's for sure. Senator BARTLETT. I gather that the burden of your testimony is that you are quite content with the situation as it exists.

Mr. JENSEN. We certainly are. This is why I wanted to explain this thing. We are certainly very happy the way things are going now. Things are under our own control more than they would be otherwise.

Senator BARTLETT. And you don't think that the crewmembers want to shift the control in any way?

Mr. JENSEN. Certainly not in this area; no. I think they're getting a better deal now than they have ever had or ever will have again and more to say than they have in their own business. That's for sure. Senator BARTLETT. Do you have any association with the State government, Mr. Jensen?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes, I am a member of the board of fish and game; yes. Senator BARTLETT. How many members on that board?

Mr. JENSEN. We have 10 members on the board.

Senator BARTLETT. Ten?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. And you, among other things, draw up the regulations for fishing all through the State?

Mr. JENSEN. Yes, that's right.

Senator BARTLETT. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Jensen, for a helpful statement.

Gordon, will you give your mailing address?

Mr. JENSEN. Box 264, Petersburg.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Kenneth Stedman.

STATEMENT OF KENNETH STEDMAN, SECRETARY, PETERSBURG FISHERMEN'S UNION, PETERSBURG, ALASKA

Mr. STEDMAN. I am Kenneth Stedman, secretary of the Petersburg Fishermen's Union, independent, here in Petersburg. Senator BARTLETT. Where does it get its mail?

Mr. STEDMAN. Box 555, Petersburg.

What I have to say is for the union, and it is in agreement with what Mr. Jensen said.

I have done a lot of traveling for the union in the last 2 years, and I have talked to members of the vessel owners and the unions outside of Petersburg, and they are quite envious of our position here in Petersburg as more or less labor and management between the union and the vessel owners.

We have no troubles between the two of us, and if we ever have any troubles they are settled quite peacefully through more or less a roundtable discussion.