was adopted, all hope of purity of election | proper; he only wished for so much of the would be at an end. But that was not all; evidence as related to the conduct of Mr. he was afraid of putting this motion upon the Trotter. Journals, because then it would appear to posterity, that in a most serious case, like the present, the first question which the House considered, was merely whether the offender should be reprimanded, and then it would be urged as a precedent in all cases of a similar nature. The case had been so fully discussed, that he would not occupy the time of the House by making any further observations upon it. If any Gent. felt any doubt upon the subject, and required any further information, there could be no objection to the minutes of the committee being laid before the House.

Lord EUSTON said, as the House seemed to be of opinion that his motion ought to be withdrawn, he had no objection to withdraw it.

When the SPEAKER put the question for withdrawing the motion, several Members objected to it, and the discussion therefore proceeded.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Noble Lord had relieved his mind from one great difficulty, by stating that he was not instructed by the committee to make the motion which he had made to the House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the proposition of the Hon. Gent, who spoke last but one was agreed to, it would tend to destroy all the advantages that resulted from the Grenville act, and would lead the House to try over again the whole of the case which had been decided by the committee. He was disposed to accede to the proposition made by the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Tierney), excluding, however, all idea of going any fur. ther, or of referring to any thing but that which immediately concerned the prisoner: with this exception, he had no objection to the produc tion of the further information which the Hon. Gent. required.

Mr. TIERNEY then proposed to amend the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by calling for such parts of the minutes of the evidence of the said committee, as related to the said James Trotter.

The motion being put on the amendment,

The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND rose to oppose the motion: he contended, that the House could not have punished this person in the manner now proposed, unless he had admitted the fact at the bar of that House. The

The motion was then put and negatived question was not now, whether this man without a division.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, that so much of the minutes of the said committee as related to the summoning of James Trotter to appear as a witness, be laid before that House.

should be punished for disobeying the order of that House; but the object of the present proceeding would be to punish him for an of fence with which he was not charged by the committee. It had been said that this man had offered a bribe; but was that a crime of which he was accused? And it would be contrary to every principle of justice to go into Mr. TIERNEY said, he did not think that the examination of a crime with which the motion went far enough; he thought if they man had never been accused, and against were to call for the minutes of the evidence, which he had never been heard in his defence. they ought to have all the evidence that re- If the committee had entertained any suspi lated to the prisoner, in order to know whe-cions of the kind that had now been thrown ther he was or was not an important witness; because if they merely wanted to know that he had been summoned and did not attend, the House was already in possession of that fact by the report of the committee.

The Hon. R. DUNDAS said, that if the Hon. Gent.'s proposition was acceded to, he thought the whole of the evidence ought to be laid before the House, so that they might judge as well upon the evidence which was given on the one side as the other.

Mr. TIERNEY, in explanation, said, that nothing could be further from his intention than to call for the whole evidence that was given before the committee, or to go at all into the merits of the decision of the committee, which he was convinced was perfectly

out, they would have asked leave to adjourn their proceedings till the man could have been found and examined. Suppose it should be stated in the minutes of the evidence, that this man did offer a bribe, would he be per mitted to enter into his defence? And it cer tainly would be unjust to punish him without hearing what he had to say in his defence. On the other hand, it would be irregular to enter into an examination of the whole case, and to examine witnesses to ascertain his innocence: upon the whole, therefore, he was of opinion that the proceeding now proposed could not be listened to for a moment.

Lord GLENBERVIE said, he was decidedly' of opinion, that before the House proceeded to pass any sentence upon the prisoner, they ought to be in possession not only of the fact

for had he appeared in time, as it was his duty, he would have avoided all this inconve nience. Upon the ground that the whole of the evidence ought to be laid before the House, in order that it might be fully acquainted with the nature of the case, which at present it was not, he concurred in the motion now be fore the House.

Mr. SHERIDAN explained.—He did not allude to the minutes of the committee as mat. ter of aggravation on the general misconduct of the prisoner, but merely as it related to the wilfulness of his absence, after he was served with the Speaker's warrant to attend. He thought, however, that the House could not suffer this person to enter upon oath to contradict what appeared against him before the committee.

The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND ex plained and said, that all he contended was, that this was an ex parte proceeding, and might possibly affect some persons who ought not to be affected by it: it might in some de gree affect the sitting Member, to whose election this matter referred, and that, he apprehended, would not be regular.

of his contempt of the order of the House, but they ought also to know the degree of guilt that was imputable to him. In calling for this further information, there was certainly no kind of imputation upon the committee, because, in apportioning the degree of punishment, it would be necessary to ascertain the different shades and degrees of guilt. This was analogous to the proceedings in courts of law in cases of misdemeanour; after a person was convicted, the judge, when the prisoner was brought up for judgment, read over the whole of the evidence of the case, in order that the court might know whether there was any circumstance of extenuation or of aggravation. He admitted, that it would be proper to have the minutes of the committee laid before the House; and if there were on the face of these minutes any thing which gave a colouring to the conduct of this man, he could not, as a Member of the House, refuse his assent to it. As to the propriety of not bearing this matter in aggravation, he saw no objection to it, for the whole of it was matter of aggravation. Would it not be aggravation, if it should appear that this man was agent to any of the parties, or connected with any of the parties? Most undoubtedly it would be matter of aggravation, and such as the House ought to consider. All The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he could that the House knew at present was, that he not understand the distinction which some was here in the custody of the officer of the Gent. seemed to take in this case; that House, and that his name was James Trotter; they would not receive any thing that went in that he had been served with the warrant of aggravation of punishment, but they would the Speaker of that House, and that he had receive that which would aggravate the colour disobeyed the injunctions of that warrant; of guilt. Now, whether a man wilfully abthat a committee of the House had re- sented himself, or was absent from ignorance, ported him to have been wilfully absent, and was a question of colour to the offence, and that he confessed his guilt: that was all the to allow evidence of the colour of the offence, House knew of him, and therefore further was allowing evidence of the aggravation of information was necessary, in order to the the offence; and he could not see how any proper understanding of the case; and if that aggravation of guilt could be received in eviinformation led to the aggravation of the case, dence without drawing after it, as a necessary that was not matter to prevent the House consequence, an aggravation of punishment. from considering it. But although this course Whether the House should think that the priappeared to be just, yet he must further ob- soner, who had once an opportunity of exserve, that this was not all which justice re-plaining his conduct by evidence, but which quired to be done, for the House must then hear what the prisoner had to say in his own behalf. That the House had done already on the case as it now stood: of course, if the prisoner was to be charged with something more, he ought to be heard again, for that was no more than a common rule of justice; and this obviated, perhaps, the whole objection which had hitherto been stated against the course which was now proposed. It was true that the prisoner could not call evidence, but he must admit the truth of the case exhibited against him: the House, however, would hear him with indulgence, and give him the full benefit of whatever he could reasonably urge in his own behalf, and the more so, be cause he could not offer any evidence; but that was a situation, however hard, it must be remembered he had brought upon himself;

he had lost, either by his own negligence or wilfulness, should now have that opportunity restored to him, was a consideration for the House; perhaps he was not now entitled to any such indulgence, nor was it easy to see how the forms of the House would admit it, supposing such a thing was desirable, which he was not saying it was; this was not the time for discussing that point, but he should think that if the minutes, after they were laid before the House, should call for a larger pu nishment than the House should be disposed in its justice to inflict upon the present statement of the case, then he should think the matter deserved to be considered; for they should not punish a man for what he did not know the House were going to punish him, but that the House should at least allow the prisoner to give whatever favourable colour

he was able to any thing that was objected to him. That perhaps would be the course which the House would adopt in this case.

The question was then put, "That so much "of the minutes of the evidence given before "the Dunfermline committee as relates to "James Trotter, be laid before this House:" which was ordered.

since the act of Parliament, as white salt, and there should be no distinction in the duty; whereas at present the bushel of bay salt, which contained 84 pounds weight, and which came from Spain, paid no more duty than the British salt, which contained only 56 pounds weight in the bushel; he wished to do away this distinction, by which he said much more British salt would be imported into Ireland than there had been of late; and he complained that this part of our trade, particularly at Liverpool, had greatly fallen off within the last three years. He complained also of the effect of smuggling. He said this measure would lower the price of that article in Ireland, and be of great advantage to the lower classes in that country, for they paid the same duty on that article as the higher classes, and consumed more in proportion to their wants, because they subsisted more on salt provisions than the higher classes. He saw no reason for continuing the present duty on salt imported into Ireland to Spain, as a favour to Spain, for Spain was no ally of ours, and was not unlikely soon to become an enemy, and, in the present state of things, might fitly enough be called our natural enemy. He ar gued at some length on the propriety of what he was about to propose, on the good effect which he said it would produce to trade, both in England and Ireland, which would be much more than a balance for the defalcation it would create in the revenue. He observed, that when the last duty was laid on, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had lamented the necessity of it, and had considered it merely as a war tax. He considered the present Chancellor of the Exchequer as pledged in some measure to assent to the motion he proposed, from his former promise, and from every principle of policy, as well as liberality, to the people of Ireland, who laboured under some difficulties which this motion was intended to remove. He then moved, "That "leave be given to bring in a bill to equalize "by weight the bushel of all salt imported "into that part of the United Kingdom called "Ireland."

[SALT.]-General GASCOIGNE rose for the purpose, he said, of moving, pursuant to notice, for leave to bring in a bill to equalize by weight the bushel of all salt imported into that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland. He entered much at large into the history of the regulation of this article from the statute of the 4th of Anne, c. 14, down to the present moment, and observed that his object was, in point of fact, to lower the duty upon English salt imported into Ireland, by equalizing the duty upon all salt imported into that country. That was the effect of his motion. At present, all salt imported into Ireland bore a certain duty per bushel; but there was, however, an essential difference in the duty on the different sorts of salt imported into Ireland, and that difference arose from the difference of quantity which the bushels contained. The salt which was imported into Ireland from Portugal and Spain, which was commonly called bay salt, contained 84 pounds weight in the bushel; whereas the salt which was imported from this country into Ireland contained no more than 56 pounds weight to the bushel, and yet the duty was the same on both; his object was to make the duties equal in each, and he argued upon the policy of so doing. He said it would lower the price of English salt in Ireland, which was a very great object, and which the people of that country would receive as a great boon. He reminded the Chancellor of the Exchequer of England of his promise to diminish the duty upon salt soon after he came into office, and observed that it was a promise which was received with great joy all over the country here and in Ireland: he maintained it was politic to do so, on account of the importance of this article to various branches of our manufactures and trades in the curing of provisions, &c. and most particularly to the trade of Ireland; and he maintained, that if the object of his motion was carried into effect, the defalcationing seconded, which it would occasion in the revenue would not be more than 13,000l. a year, a sum which the fertility of the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would too casily supply to make this an obiection to the motion. He Mr. CORRY took a very comprehensive view was now only asking, that British salt should of the subject; he explained the regulation of not be made to pay more on its being imported the statute of Queen Ann, and the distinction into Ireland, than Spanish salt paid; that we between the bushel under that statute, which should, in this respect, be put on a footing | contained only the weight of 36 pounds of with the most favoured nation. He main-salt, and that of the Winchester bushel, which stained that bay salt had been considered, ever contained 84 pounds weight, in the reign of

The SPEAKER observed, that as this was a matter relating to trade, it was necessary that it should be referred to a committee of the whole House, before any further proceeding could be had on the motion. The motion be

It was then moved, that the said motion be referred to a committee of the whole House.

but that was not all; there were no salt springs in Ireland, nor had they there the means of manufacturing salt. They were indebted to this country for two very material articles, rock salt and coals; and, even if they could manufacture the article, there was much consideration due to the expense which would attend it in Ireland under its disadvantages for freight, commission, and a great many charges on the carriage of coals and other articles which must be brought from this country before they could manufacture rock salt; so that any measure tending (and this measure evidently and avowedly tended) to diminish the importation of bay or foreign salt would certainly be injurious to the trade of Ireland. There had been no complaints between the British and the Irish manufacturers upon this subject; the trade had been carried on without any difficulty in this respect, and such had been the policy of Ireland, that they had always used much foreign salt-they had al

King Charles the Second; and gave an historical account of the duties upon this article until they were made perpetual, and observed, that there had been no innovation in Ireland upon this subject, but it was imposed there as it was in England. He explained the whole custom in the way of importing this article; and observed, that in Ireland all bay salt was entered as white salt; and it was the same in this country, it paid nevertheless duty only on 84 pounds weight to the bushel. He explained the difference in the disposal of this article between the customs and the excise, and then proceeded to observe, that the Hon. Gent. had stated, that the export of salt from Liverpool to Ireland had of late diminished, and he seemed to wish to diminish the importation of foreign salt into Ireland, for the purpose of increasing the importation of British salt there; that seemed to be the object of the Hon. Gent. by the motion now before the House: it was to discourage the importation of foreign salt, for the purpose of encou-ways been obliged to prefer foreign salt, beraging that of British manufacture, for the cause, as he had said already, the article of demand for the one must increase in propor- provision required it. Now it might be said, tion to the diminution of the other. Now, that to lower the price of other salt, would upon this subject he must be permitted to not be injurious to the manufactures of Ireobserve, that bay salt was not only of a re- land in general; that was a sentence which markably strong quality, but it was such as sounded well, but it was not too lightly to be was indispensable to the provision trade of assumed; inconveniencies might follow this, Ireland; and therefore, as long as the provi- although they were not obvious to every one. sion trade of Ireland remained as at this time, This might be an inducement to manufacthe mode now proposed by the Hon. Gent. turers to use the cheapest articles in curing would not answer the purpose for which he their provisions, and in other manufactures, intended it: his object was to increase trade; and which would not so well answer the purbut the mode proposed would diminish it, pose; the provisions would neither so well because it would diminish the importation of supply his Majesty's fleets and armies as they bay salt, and that article was actually neces- formerly did a very important consideration sary in many manufactures, and in the pro- at all times, and particularly at the present vision trade it was actually indispensable. time, when we ought to take care not to expose Bay salt was very different in quality from ourselves to any danger in this respect in partiother salt; it was of a grain much larger, and cular; nor would the character of the article of a quality much stronger, and less easily of provision be long preserved in the foreign dissolved than any other salt: it was there- market-another very important consideration fore peculiarly fit for packing in the provision at any time, and still more so at this time, trade, and excellently adapted for provisions when Ireland was successfully endeavouring for his Majesty's navy and army: it was su to enlarge its commerce. The Hon. Gent. perior to any other salt for curing provisions complained of the diminution of exports from destined to hot climates, and had therefore this country to Ireland, and particularly in been employed in the service of this country the article of salt from Liverpool: that might in every part of the world. It was well known be very true, and he believed it was as far as that Ireland depended much on its provision the Hon. Gent. took notice of it. There trade, and this was owing in some degree to might be a diminution in the exportation the quality of the flesh of that country, but from Liverpool to Ireland, but the general still more to the quality of the bay salt they importation into Ireland had increased, notused in curing it; and if that salt was not withstanding it had for the last two or three used, the quality of the cured provisions years diminished; but that was a very partial would be greatly deteriorated, which must way, as he conceived, of viewing the subject. soon produce a decay of trade, by which Ire-It should be taken on a fair average of six land would lose her pre-eminence in this particular, as well as in some other articles of manufacture, for it would lose its character in the foreign market; but he apprehended he had stated enough, when he said that the provision trade of Ireland was essential to the support of his Majesty's fleets and armies:

years; and if the Hon. Gent. took that view of it, he would find that this trade had not diminished. It was true, that the quantity of provisions purchased from Ireland for the last two years, had been less than others upon an average of the last six years: this was partly owing to the demands of the war having