Noble Lord that he should come down on | der the denomination of commercial agents, Monday fully prepared to give the House a being put, satisfactory answer upon that subject. With regard to the third point alluded to by the Lord PELHAM rose, and recited the several Noble Lord, he had to state that no such motions which the Noble Earl had announced contre-projet as that described had ever been his intention to bring forward, commenting received. It was, however, a fact, that com- on each. Upon those which we have al Inunications had been had from France since ready referred to, as förming the subject of the departure of Lord Whitworth from Paris; debate the preceding day in the other House, but they were of a secret unofficial kind, and he gave the same explanation as that delivered he cautioned the House against entertaining by his Noble Colleague (Lord Hawkesbury); any hope that they were of such a nature as but as to the conduct of Ministers upon the could at all lead to form the basis of a nego-interposition of France in the affairs of the tiation. They were not indeed by any means Ionian republic, he referred the Noble Earl entertaised; and as they could not tend to any to the Appendix to the Report of the Negoproceeding, they were not, of course, such tiation already before the House; and as to documents as it would be proper to lay before the representations made respecting the spirit their Lordships. of aggrandizement manifested by France on the continent, he held in his hand a paper, which he was directed by his Majesty to lay before the House, and which he supposed would supersede the necessity of the Noble Earl's motion: it was the copy of a letter addressed by Lord Hawkesbury to Lord Whit worth, immediately on his leaving this country, directing him to watch with peculiar care any spirit of aggrandizement which might be manifested by the French government after his arrival in France, and to take proper notice of any evidence of that spirit which might have occurred since the treaty of Amiens. As to the Noble Earl's proposition for an account of the nature of the intelligence upon which the assertion in his Majesty's message of March last, respecting the French and Dutch armaments, was founded, it was unnecessary to the question fixed for consideration on Monday, and impolitic to grant-unnecessary, because it was matter of notoriety, that there was at the time quite enough of armaments then preparing to warrant the assertion in his Majesty's message: for there were then nearly in readiness, French armaments for the East Indies, Louisiana, and St. Domingo, which, though ostensibly intended for legitimate objects, might, in the then state of discussions subsisting between the two governments, be converted to very hostile purposes: of this it was reasonable to entertain apprehension. The intelligence sought for, however, upon this subject, it would be impolitic to grant,, because it would be to endanger the loss of an important source of private information. Earl STANHOPE said, he was happy that the Noble Secretary of State had agreed to the proposition relative to the outrages said to have been committed on our shipping; but he objected to the Noble Secretary's purpose to postpone the information applied for as to Capt. D'Auvergne, to Monday next; for surely it would then be too late to communicate information so immediately connected with a subject which was fixed for discussion on that day. He conceived that the Noble Secretary should either adhere to what he could now state on that point, or he should propose the adjournment of the discussion, which stood for Monday, to some future day, in order to give farther time for consideration. Lord BORINGDON said, that he felt so forcibly the propriety of the reasons stated by his Noble Friend, with regard to the two other motions he had intended to submit to the House, that he certainly should not persist in proposing them. Earl FITZWILLIAM, after some observations on the defects which appeared to him in the information afforded by the papers presented to the House on Wednesday last, stated several motions which he wished to propose for obtaining farther information. Those motions he described: they were precisely the same as those moved for the preceding day in the other House of Parliament, with the addition of two motions relative to the interference of France in the Ionian republic, and the conduct of Ministers by written representation, or otherwise, in consequence thereof; and also the representations, if any, which Ministers may have made against the spirit of aggrandizement which France had manifested on the continent, together with the replies thereto. The Noble Earl's first motion as to the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers respecting the persons sent into this country by France, un Earl CARLISLE admitted the importance and necessity of the information being obtained, which the Noble Earl's motions sought for; and so convinced was he of that necessity, that he intended to submit motions of precisely the same nature to the House at a future day, but he conceived them quite unnecessary towards enabling their Lordships to decide upon the subject fixed for consideration on Monday next; from which it was highly desirable to exclude all matter not strictly re levant, lest it should tend to prevent that unanimity-[A cry of Hear! hear!]-which he hoped and trusted would prevail on that occasion. That nothing collateral should be introduced was his wish; but, no doubt, when the conduct of Ministers came to be examined -when the question should be discussed, whether they had acted so as to maintain the dignity and secure the interests of the country, then indeed the information which the Noble Lord had now in view would be material. With respect to the armaments alluded to in his Majesty's message of March last, he would say, that if Ministers had meant merely the armaments referred to by the Secretary of State in the course of this debate, the grounds of that alarming message, and of calling out the militia, such a conduct was so culpable, that they ought to have accompanied it by a proposal for a bill of indemnity. This, however, with other circumstances of their administration, would be hereafter brought before the House; but in the present instance he deprecated any thing that could lead to discussion, or to damp that zeal upon which his Majesty, in his gratious Declaration, expressed his reliance for upholding the honour and dignity of his Crown, and for asserting and maintaining the rights and interests of his people. Lord HOBART said, that he felt the utmost pleasure in the declaration which the Noble Lord had just made, respecting the unanimity which was so very desirable in the discussion of Monday next, and he hoped that Parliament and the people would ever feel a common interest in the maintenance of a public cause, particularly one of a nature so important as that which was appointed for consideration on Monday. With regard to the threatened inquiry into the conduct of Ministers, he would observe, that whenever the day of investigation should come, he could assure the Noble Lord that they were perfectly ready and willing to meet it. He was not so confident as to say, that their conduct was without any faults; but under all the difficulties of their situation (and difficulties perhaps unprecedented in our history they had to encounter), he was quite certain that they would be found to have been uniformly actuated by the best intentions towards the honour of their Sovereign and the safety of their country. Earl FITZWILLIAM expressed himself satisfied with the explanation of the Noble Lord (Pelham) as to the conduct of Ministers towards the soi-disant commercial commissioners, and said he should, with the consent of the House, propose to withdraw his motion. As to the increased armaments of France, he took occasion to observe, that, though so much talked of, they were incapable of injuring us, unless the statement as to the practicability of conveying an army under the sea to invade this country, was to be attended to. Of this, however, he had no apprehension. (A laugh.) The motion being withdrawn, and a motion as to the representations made by Ministers respecting the French troops in Holland, being proposed and read, Earl STANHOPE rose to disclaim having ever stated any thing which could warrant the inference drawn by the Noble Earl who had spoken last. The idea was quite absurd. What he said on a former occasion referred solely to the celebrated project of Fulton, the American, and which, to save his own life, he was obliged to communicate to the French government. The intelligence of this fact he had from seven different sources; and in order to save the lives of his fellow-men, and to save the fleet of his country, he thought it his duty to mention the scheme in that House, as Ministers had made no endeavour to inquire into it; though he could assure the House there were many scientific and professional men who were of opinion that this plan was practicable; and there were three Noble Lords in that House, among the friends of Ministers, who offered to investigate the plan, if called upon by them. It was properly a subject for private consideration; but if Ministers did not think proper to seck for knowledge in this way, he would certainly bring the business before the House and the public. Lord BORINGDON rose to order, and begged that the Noble Lord might speak to the question before the House. Lord STANHOPE asserted, that he knew the orders of the House at least as well as the Noble Lord, but he was aware of the Noble Lord's reasons for interrupting him—he was unwilling to go into the investigation.—(A laugh.) Earl SPENCER, after expressing his unwill ingness to take up the time of the House by adverting to the subject of the Noble Lord's observations who had just sat down, declared that he cordially concurred in the sentiments of his Noble Friend (Lord Carlisle) as to the propriety of avoiding any topic that could produce the least dissension in the vote of Monday next-a vote which must so materially concern the best interests of the state. He therefore confidently trusted that unanimity would prevail; and, in his judgment, there were more than sufficient grounds in the papers already before the House, to justify that confidence, to induce their Lordships to accede to the propriety of adopting measures to vindicate the insulted consequence of the country. No further information appeared necessary upon that head; but the case was different with respect to the system which Ministers had pursued. He wished, however, that those two great questions should be kept quite distinct, namely, the one as to the deliberation and judgment of the House upon the cause of the country, with respect to France; and the other as to the cause of the country, with respect to Ministers. These were topics which he thought ought to be quite distinctly considered; and the motions of the Noble Earl on the floor seemed to him more properly to belong to the latter question, than to that which stood for discussion on Monday. litia, and for making several amendments in the acts for that purpose. The principal object of the intended bill was to complete the quotas of the different counties, and to facilitate the means of calling out the supplementary militia, should his Majesty think fit to have that measure adopted. Although he had the satisfaction to mention that the adoption of the measure proposed last session had produced great effect, and that nearly four fifths of the militia were already assembled; yet he could not disguise it from the House, that there Lord PELHAM agreed with the Noble Earl were still many deficiencies to be made up in who had just sat down, as to the propriety of several counties. These he was sure the House separating the two questions to which he had would see the necessity of filling up without alluded; and, with respect to the Noble Earl's delay: there would consequently be a clause motions, though some of the information in the bill, empowering the Deputy Lieutethey applied for did not appear at all neces- nants of counties to proceed forthwith to fill sary to form a correct judgment on the subject up those vacancies, without any reference to of Monday's debate, and therefore he objected their cause. As the law now stood, vacancies to them, yet, with reference to the other objects caused by desertion could not be filled up till alluded to by the Noble Lord who had spoken three months had elapsed; but he should prolast, he should most probably feel it to be his pose so to amend the bill, as to cause such duty to adopt a different line of conduct, and vacancies to be filled up within the space of therefore he would recommend the Noble one month. He should also propose a clause, Earl, according to the suggestions of these empowering the commandants of regiments Noble Lords, to withdraw his motion for the of militia to report the vacancies, and the mapresent, and in all likelihood, by the time the gistrates to levy the penalties that might be intelligence he wished for might be neces-incurred, at every quarter sessions. Several sary, his object would be answered through a private conference; and if not, perhaps the paper he was just about to lay before the House would enable the Noble Earl to frame his motions in a more satisfactory way. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he could not conceive of what stuff that man's mind must be made, who would hesitate in deciding, from a review of the papers on the table, what course the country ought to pursue for preserving its honour and security. Some Noble Lords, indeed, were free to admit, that the act of Government, in this instance at least, stood upon good grounds; but laying his claim to a candid consideration of the whole of the proceedings of Administration, he had no difficulty in stating that they would be found to stand upon justifiable grounds. The motion was withdrawn. Lord PELHAM presented the paper which the Noble Lord had described in his speech as the copy of instructions to Lord Whitworth; which was ordered to lie on the table. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, May 20.-(See Minutes, p. 214.) [MILITIA.]-The SECRETARY at WAR rose, pursuant to a notice which he had given yesterday of a motion for leave to bring in a bill for the more speedy completing of the mi abuses had crept into the enrolment of men for the militia, which it was essential to correct; and if the measure proposed appeared to be a strong one, the House, upon reflection, would see that it was not stronger than the nature of the case required. It might also happen that his Majesty would issue a proclamation, calling in deserters from the militia, in like manner as deserters from the army are invited to return. Those who should return within a given time would be free from the penalty they had incurred, while those who refused to return within the time limited would be punished as they deserved, and a description of their persons published all over the kingdom, while the magistrates would be enjoined to aid and assist in causing such per sons to be arrested. Towards facilitating the enrolment of the supplementary militia, there would also be a clause in the bill similar to that introduced during the last war, for admitting men of five feet two inches; and should the course of hostilities make it necessary to embody the supplementary militia, his Majesty should be empowered so to do without being under the necessity of calling Parliament together. He should also propose that all seamen who may be serving in the militia might be turned over to the navy, and that they should be replaced by substitutes, provided at the public expense. These were the general outlines of the bill, which, when duly examined, he trusted the House would agree to, though the provisions of the bill might in some instances appear rather strong. They were not, however, stronger than the nature of the case, and of the circumstances that called for it. The Rt. Hon. Gent. concluded with moving that leave be given to bring in a bill for the more speedy completing, &c. the enrolment of the militia. should observe, and the language he shoul hold, when discussing that point with the French government. Mr. GREY thought that the dispatches al Col. PORTER asked the Rt. Hon. Gent. ifluded to should be printed, together with the he did not intend to propose some mode for preventing the frauds that were so frequently practised by persons chosen to serve in the militia? other papers already ordered by the Hous Perhaps they might enable the House to judg of the nature of the violence offered, and of the remonstrances which that violence mus, no doubt, have drawn from his Majesty's Ministers. If any other papers, containing fur ther and more satisfactory information, could possibly be laid before the House, he readily trusted to the Noble Lord's candour to pre duce them. The dispatch ordered by his Ma jesty is said to relate to representations made respecting the continuance of French troops in Holland, contrary to the will of the peo ple, and in direct violation of solemn treaties. As that was made a principal caused plaint, surely there must exist some tñical document as to the answers made to these com plaints. Lord Whitworth had undoubted obeyed his instructions in making the repre sentations prescribed to him, and must have conveyed to Ministers the answers that were made to them. Of these answers Ministers must surely be in possession. But it appears from the case, as it was stated last night, that many points have been confined to verbal com munications, and these have not been reduced to any official form: yet most undoubtedly it was material to know what passed here between his Majesty's Secretary of State, and the Am bassador from the French republic; for wit out that knowledge, how could a fair and ade quate judgment be formed of the conduct and issue of the negotiation? The Noble Secreta of State must greatly increase his responsibi The question was then put for leave to lity, if, for points of such magnitude, bring in the bill, and agreed to. [THE NEGOTIATION.]-Lord HAWKESBURY presented the papers which were ordered yesterday, pursuant to the motions made by Mr. Grey. In presenting them, his Lordship took an opportunity of observing, that though a variety of memorials that may have been presented, complaining of violence of fered to the property of his Majesty's subjects, were not as yet arrived in this country, there were sufficient documents, however, now on the table to answer the purpose which induced the Hon. Gent. to move for them. There were also among them the papers that related to the Cape of Good Hope, and to the cession of Louisiana. In addition to the papers moved for, he had also laid upon the table, by his Majesty's command, a copy of a dispatch, which proved that no actual remonstrance had been made to the French government respecting the French troops occupying Holland, but merely an instruction to Lord Whitworth respecting the manner he trusted merely to his memory, without con mitting them to something in the form of a official record. Might they not be laid before the House in that shape? The Noble Lord should endeavour to hit upon some mode of submitting the tenour of these conversations to the House. Lord HAWKESBURY observed, that what was suggested by the Hon. Gent. appeared to him wholly new, and had never yet occurre as far as he could recollect. As to the genera course of the negotiation, it was pretty well known that it was carried on at Paris, and not here. No doubt frequent conversations welt carried on in London between himself and the French Ambassador, in which he took an of portunity to insist on the justice of our de mands, that the French Ambassador might repeat these conversations to his government. But the principal seat of that negotiation was Paris; and indeed it could not be carried on both there and in London, without producing the greatest confusion. The preliminaries were negotiated here, and he was ready pre pared to produce all the documents respecting that negotiation, in case it had failed. Mr. GREY said, he understood the Noble Lord to say that there were no written representations respecting the continuance of the French troops in Holland. Was he therefore to understand that these unwritten representations took place here? If so, some account of them might in one shape or other be laid before Parliament. Lord HAWKESBURY contended, that in what he had said he meant no reference to Holland, but to the consuls, or commercial agents, to whom allusion was made last night. Mr. GREY then moved, that the papers now presented be printed. their mind on the great question that was then to come before them. Mr. WHITBREAD rose to repeat a question which he put last night, but to which he had obtained no distinct answer. The question was, whether Government had received no new communication from France since the departure of Lord Whitworth from Paris? Lord HAWKESBURY had no difficulty in saying that he had seen a note, but not offi cially, until this day. He might, perhaps, produce that note, but it came to him in that sort of way, that, as to the political point which the Hon. Gent. seemed to have in view, Ministers would not be justifiable in drawing any inference from it. Mr. WHITBREAD and Mr. GREY again asked the Noble Lord, whether substantially there was not received some communication from France, whether signed or not, whether in an official or unofficial form? Mr. SHERIDAN thought it of the highest importance that the House should be in possession of every possible information that could enable them to come duly prepared to the discussion of the great question that was to be submitted to them on Monday next. But Lord HAWKESBURY would feel no difficulty to him it appeared frivolous to have any addi- in producing the communication alluded to, tional papers printed, unless sufficient time if it had come to him in an official form. The was allowed attentively and carefully to pe- communication was made in a confidential ruse them, which could not be the case if the manner, such indeed as prevented him from discussion took place on Monday. In his producing it. As to the substance of it, howmind it was not so useful to come to the dis- ever, he had no disposition to conceal it. cussion expeditiously, as to come to it with The communication came through a circuitous minds fully prepared to give the question a channel, and proposed a possible ground of thorough and complete investigation. To that arrangement; but it was so inadmissible, that end he ventured to suggest the propriety of it could not be listened to for a moment. Not deferring the discussion till Wednesday. He only was it not put in an official shape, but it should now, however, beg leave to ask whe- contained a proposition which it was impossither Mr. Talbot still continued at Paris, and ble to accede to consistently with the good whether M. Portalis had left London? Many faith of the country, and that sense of digreports were abroad on this subject, respect- nity and honour which would ever characteing the truth of which it was essential therize the conduct which this country would inpublic should be informed. variably pursue. Lord HAWKESBURY had received no authentic account of Mr. Talbot having left Paris, neither did he know if M. Portalis was still in London. As to the reports alluded to by the Hon. Gent. that these Gentlemen might be still employed in carrying on a negotiation, there was no foundation whatever for them. He should oppose any delay in bringing on the question on Monday, unless some very urgent reason was adduced in support of it. The papers now produced and moved to be printed contained no new fact, nor any information with which Gent. might not already be acquainted. He was therefore at a loss to see any necessity for deferring the consideration of the papers already before the House. Mr. CANNING objected to deferring the discussion beyond Monday. The papers, of which the House were already in possession, contained ample matter on which to make up VOL. III. Lord TEMPLE repeated the question, whether Mr. Talbot was not left at Paris for the purpose of entering into negotiations with the French government; and has General Andreossi left his secretary here with a similar intention? They were said to remain merely for domestic purposes. Surely it was a new occupation for secretaries of legation to be employed in packing up trunks! Lord HAWKESBURY replied, that neither Mr. Talbot was at Paris, nor M. Portalis here, for the purpose of carrying on any negotiation. Mr. Talbot remained to take care of the papers belonging to the embassy, and to give his countenance to such of his Majesty's subjects as still remained in France. Mr. GREY would not inquire into the precise nature of the communication, or whether it was admissible or not. It was of extreme |