right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) right as to the subscriptions which were set on foot in the metropolis, thought it his duty to state, that the object of these subscriptions was to defray those charges for which the corps were not entitled to call upon government, and the sums subscribed were to such an amount, that they could not be expended for years; neither was it an idea with these volunteers, that they were only to be shewn to the enemy in their red coats; they exercised and manoeuvred almost every day in all the evolutions necessary for a regular army. As to the committee, they only managed the money: they never interfered with the discipline of the men. He wished that adjutants should be added to the corps, but not field officers. As a proof that this was the general wish, many of the corps had already procured adjutants, and settled on them an adequate income. They were, in fact, in every respect effective soldiers, and ready to act as such wherever the appearance of the enemy required. As to the bounties for the army of reserve, 26 guineas was the highest sum given in the metropolis. Before he sat down, he should just ask the Sec. at War, why the marine and river fencibles were not noticed in the return of the volunteer corps? Was it from their being a force of an extraordinary description, which could not exactly be classed with the others.

Mr. Secretary Yorke had not inquired into the reason of the omission alluded to by the worthy alderman; but he supposed it was because the corps mentioned by him were not understood to be of the description to which the return was to apply. Probably they were understood to belong to the Admiralty.

Colonel Craufurd complained that his right hon. friend below (Mr. Windham) had been grossly misrepresented. He did not think that 400,000 men could be of no advantage to the country. On the contrary both he and his honourable friend gave the volunteers the highest credit? they only complained of the manner in which they were constituted, and that they had a tendency to starve the regular forces. He expressed his regret that any exemptions had ever been granted. He believed it had been by accidence. It was doubtful whether it was intended, even by ministers themselves, to give these exemptions; for, so late as the 23d of Sept. they had consulted his Majesty's Attorney-General whether they were to be given. If he had himself understood that they were to be given, he would have came down prepared to oppose them. As to the volunteers in general, he was of

1

not

opinion, that they ought to be carried to the highest perfection of which they were capable, and he was, therefore, sorry, that the suggestion of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), then in his place, respecting the appointment of field officers had not been adopted. He was sure the volunteers themselves would be happy to have the bencfit of the instruction of experienced officers, to enable them to perform their duty in the field, with honour to themselves, and advantage to their country; if they were really actuated by a spirit of patriotism, as he had no doubt they were, so far from feeling discontented, therefore, at such appointments, which was urged as the first objection against this useful regulation, there was every reason to conclude that they would be happy at the adoption of it. Another objection, that it would be impossible to procure a sufficient number of officers from the line, would be obviated, when it was considered, that an English regiment of about 800 men, had an establishment of double the number of officers, than a similar battalion of any other European troops. It had been said, that though the volunteer corps would object to field officers, they would have no difficulty in receiving adjutants; but, it was essential to have the officers instructed as well as the privates, and he was of opinion, that it would be inconsistent with military proprie. ty, that an adjutant, who generally held the rank of lieutenant, should instruct his captains, and even field officers. With respect to the volunteers themselves, what had been said by his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) on the subject, had been so much misconceived in the House, and so much misrepresented out of it, that he felt disposed, as he was on his legs, to set gentlemen right on that head. He had attended to his right hon. friend as much as any hon. member, and he had never heard him say any thing that could warrant an inference, that 400.000 Britons in arms, so far from being of service, would be injurious to the cause in which they were engaged. His right hon. friend was not so little acquainted with the great deeds which history related to have been performed by the sole inpulse of spirit, without discipline, and in many instances without arms. The Swiss peasants, impelled by that spirit, had attacked the French army with no other arms than pitch forks. He had himself witnessed with grief the prowess which the Irish peasantry, impelled by a mistaken spirit, had displayed in repeatedly attacking the King's troops with no other weapons than what could be easily put into the hand of every peasant, a pike. There * Iii 2

were living those who had seen similar instances of bravery in the Scotch peasants. He was sure that this country, with the spirit inspired by the best of causes, the best of Sovereigns, and a liberty such as no other nation could boast, would display as much valour as any other country at any other time. Could it then be supposed, that any man would venture to assert that 400,000 Britons, in such a cause, with whatever gallantry they may attack an enemy's forces, could do no service? All that his right hon. friend contended was, that they would not be so effective, and, though history furnished us with examples of great victories gained by undisciplined troops, there was no doubt that disciplined troops were the best. When we trusted to the army, we trusted to an army which was tried, and which had proved itself in every war, and in no war more than in the last, equal (for he would not flatter the British army by saying superior) to the French. He had heard the French army abused as a set of conscripts dragged into the service. These conscripts, by whatever means they were brought together, formed as good an army as any in Europe, and such an enemy the volunteers should expect to meet in them, animated by as high an enthusiasm as theirs, though not of so good a

nature.

Sir William Young stated, that he was particularly anxious, as this would most likely be the last time he should have an opportunity, of declaring that there were two descriptions of volunteers, and that the exemptions adopted in regard to those two descriptions ought to be extremely different. This was a point, he thought, essential to the interest of the country. A strong line of demarkation ought to be made. He had looked into the acts of Parliament on the subject of the volunteer exemptions, and he found that he was borne out in what he then asserted, that the volunteers under the 42d of the King, were of a different class in the eye of the legislature from the present volunteers, who had no regulation but that of the 43d of the King. The latter were a very large body of men, by whose exemption the great mass of the population of the country was greatly affected; they impeded very much indeed the progress of the army of reserve, for three-fourths of them were of the first class of the Defence Act, unmarried men under the age of thirty this was a serious matter: they ought not to have these exemptions, for it was greatly inconvenient to the country. As to the volunteers under the 42d of the King, who were the only true volunteers, in the proper

sense of the word, for they came forward without any view of exemption; they were justly entitled to every exemption; they were in number from 69,000 to 70,000, and they were a body of men, on whom the country need not less rely for patriotism than for discipline; but the other great body which had been lately raised, and had entered, was not so properly called a body of volunteers, although that name had been given to them. They were not at first to bave been exempted, either from the militia or the army of reserve: by the act of the 17th of July, no intention was expressed of exempt. ing any of them either from the militia, army of reserve, or other service; but on the 11th of August, when many gentlemen had gone into the country in hopes of serv ing it as essentially as they could by attending that House, a clause crept into a bill for regulating the volunteer cavalry, by which all this immense body of men were exempted from all other services, as it was now to be interpreted by the present bill, but which. could hardly have been then so intended, as indeed was to be gathered by the very necessity there was now of explaining that act. This was a matter worthy the serious attention of the House at some future period. By these 300,000 men being thus entitled to exemption from the militia and the army of reserve, and three-fourths of them being of the first class of requisition under the Defence Act, being unmarried men under the age of thirty, this threw all the ballots almost upon men who had families, and they wishing to remain with and provide for them, of course became eager for substitutes, so that a great competition arose among them, and the effect was the bounty for substitutes became enormous. These were matters to be considered gravely; not that he wished our military strength to be diminished by any means; no, we must continue that strength while the affairs of Europe wore their present aspect. It was no matter to us whether Buonaparté existed or not, while France was the military nation she was, we must bear a relative proportion to that military power. He admitted, however, that no addition ought to be made to the condition of any man who entered into his military service that would be a breach of faith-The hon. baronet then took up the subject of popularity, as stated by Mr. Hiley Addington, and said, that his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) could never be unpopular among those who knew how to value a man versed in ancient, and intimately acquainted with every branch of modern learning, who knew how to esteem private

worth and public virtue. As to the " gross ignorance" which the right hon. gent. had thought proper to apply to his right hon. friend, he was astonished, and he believed that every member present was also astonishel, that it should ever have entered into the head of that gentleman to make an insinuation of so extravagant a nature.-He concluded by insisting on the distinction which he had taken between the two classes of volunteers, those of the 424, and those of the 43d of the King; the first he thought. entitled to all exemptions, the other to

none

Colonel Calcraft, in answer to what had fallen from the worthy Alderman (Price), thought that the facility of recruiting in provincial districts, as compared with the difficulty stated to exist in London, did not arise from the cause stated by the worthy alderman, namely, the giving of higher bounties in the former than in the latter, but from the circumstance of a vast number of working artisans being dismissed from their employment at Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, and various other manufacturing towns, as the returns from those towns would prove. These men, when they were unemployed, and saw no chance of being reinstated, immediately formed the idea of enlisting in the line or militia; and instead of going from town to town to look for higher bounties, repaired to the next town where they could be received; and this would account for the difference of facility in raising recruits in the country. With respect to the volunteers themselves, as he had not had an opportunity of speaking his sentiments, he wished to say a few words. It had been pretty much the fashion to charge a right hon. gent. near him (Mr. Windham) with disparaging those corps, as utterly useless and unfit for service. He, for one, never conceived the arguments of that right hon. gent. in that view, but merely as meaning that his Majesty's ministers did not use the military population of the country in the way which he thought most efficient. For his own part, however, he felt no disposition to undervalue the services of the volunteers; on the contrary, he thought they would be rendered highly serviceable and efficient for the defence of the country. As to discipline, however, as compared with troops of the line, or established militia, that was out of the question. The nature of the service, and the opportunities that had occurred for training the volunteers, admitted of no comparison with the other troops. In aid of those troops, however, he thought they would form an important branch of the pub

lic force; and he thought that as that service must depend chiefly on the high spirit and good will of the corps, a liberal conduct from those who were to direct their operations should be observed, and that government should not be over nice or strict in the minuter details of their discipline.

Mr. Secretary Yorke suggested to the hon. baronet (Sir W. Young) who spoke last but one, to read and consider the act of the 424 of his Majesty, as he seemed not to be aware of its provisions. Referring to the remark of the last speaker, which would imply some want of patriotism an 1 public spirit in London, he had to observe, that from one instance which came within his own knowledge, that insinuation would not appear to apply. When he was Secretary at War, an offer was made to him by the Drapers' Company of London, immediately after the com mencement of the war, to raise 200 or 300 men for the public service, to be attached to any regiment of the line which government might think proper. This proposal he submitted to the consideration of H. R. H. the Duke of York and General Hewit, and it was the opinion of those high authorities, that it would be imprudent to accede to it, for this reason, that it was found that this respectable and wealthy company had not the means, through their own influence and connexions, to raise the number of men specified; and that the probability was, they would offer such high bounties as would interfere with, and do much injury to, the ordinary course of recruiting for the regular army. This instance he mentioned merely as an answer to the statement, that the City of London was not sufficiently forward to contribute to the public defence; and he had no doubt, had the offer he described been accepted, that many others of a similar nature would have been made.

Mr. Giles wished to know, whether the proportion of the army of reserve, which London was to furnish, was yet complete?

Mr. Secretary Yorke stated, that there was a deficiency in the city quota, as well as in that of Middlesex; but that such deficiencies arose, not from the tardiness of those with whom the duty of providing the men rested, but from the frequency of desertion, which took place to a greater extent in this city than in any other district; and this he conceived it impossible to prevent. It arose from the nature of our police, any change in which, however, he could never persuade himself to propose or to meditate.

Mr. Giles argued, that from the reading of the Volunteer Act, the distinction taken by the hon. baronet (Sir W. Young) was

unfounded. This act described only two descriptions of service, namely, volunteers and voluntary services; and the fact was, that not one of the latter description was entitled to exemptions. The hon. baronet had been also erroneous in stating, that the prospect of exemption from the militia and the army of reserve influenced the volunteers; in contradiction to that assertion, he had to mention a fact which he knew, in consequence of the situation which he held as one of the deputy-lieutenants of Hertfordshire, namely, that the number of volunteers accepted in that county was 2800, and the number who offered for voluntary services were 6,600. The latter were not entitled to, nor did they ever look for exemptions; though the hon. baronet had stated generally, that almost all the men in the country, capable of military service, were locked up in the volunteers; and that of course the exemptions were so extensive, that it would be found quite impossible to provide recruits for the regular army. Upon inquiry he had no doubt that such circumstances as he had described in Hertfordshire, would be met with generally throughout the kingdom.

Sir William Young said, that his meaning was misconceived by the hon. member who spoke last.

Dr. Laurence rose, and, in a speech of considerable length, took a general view, as well of the volunteer system, as of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, in adopting that system, going over nearly the same ground which had been traced, both on this and on former nights, by Mr. Windham, and by the learned doctor himself. It had been the fashion, he said, for his Majesty's ministers and their supporters, to endeavour to ca lumniate, and run down the characters of those men who have the honesty and the boldness to deliver their candid sentiments in that House, in opposition to the measures of ministers, which they conceived to be impolitic; regardless of that temporary popularity which ministers were so anxious to obtain from gratifying the whim of the moment without looking to future results. Of this illiberal disposition too many instances had been given with respect to the conduct of his right hon. friend (Mr.Windham), the purity of whose motives no man could question, and the ability of whose mind even his adversaries were forced to acknowledge; but yet he was the subject of much undeserved censure, and extremely culpable misrepresentation. The latter, The latter, some persons out of doors seemed encouraged to promote; and the effect of that

misrepresentation in the circles of the minister's friends, was quoted in that House as an objection to his right hon. friend's opinion- A right hon. gent. on the other side of the House, whom he did not now see in his place (Mr. H. Addington), had this night stated, in a very confident tone, that his right hon. friend was unpopular; he had expressed his astonishment at the sedulous perseverance of his right hon. friend, in reprobating the volunteers, and asserted that every corner of the country echoed with censure, disapprobation, and disgust, at the conduct of his rt. hon. friend. What, he would ask, was the cry, of unpopularity, even if it attached to a particular course of policy, to weigh with the mind of an enlightened statesman, to urge him to the abandonment of that course, against the conviction of his own judgment? The idea was too ridiculous to be entertained. No sound politician could support it. That popularity was highly desirable, was an indisputable proposition, because it was, independently of other considerations, a powerful instrument for a politician to work with; and, whatever the advocates of ministers might assert or insinuate, he would contend, that his right hon. friend did possess a very high degree of popula rity, which was particularly owing to his opposition to the volunteer system. This fact he knew from his acquaintance with the sentiments of the people throughout the country, and particularly those of the more intelligent description. He said he was himself present when a large company, consisting principally of the friends of administration, drank that gentleman's health, and made him the bearer of a complimentary message to him, for the part he had taken with regard to this subject. The learned member observed, that the company he alluded to was composed of men whose talents and characters were such as to entitle their opinion to respect-men to be esteemed by whom was indeed a flattering evidence of the popularity which his right hon. friend enjoyed; and he could not help saying, that any people who could condemn the motives which manifestly actuated his right hon. friend, or who could not respect the line of public conduct which he had pursued, were incapable of understanding their own interests, were scarcely worthy to be served. Yet, however much he regarded public opinion, however much he respected popularity, he must observe, that too much was generally said in that House about following the sentiments of the people, for if the people

were always to be followed, for what purpose were some persons selected to lead? No rational man would wish to render himself obnoxious to the people, but yet no intelligent and dignified statesman would shrink from his purpose from fear of popularity, for it was notorious that the people were too apt to consult their immediate ease, and but seldom to look to future interests, however important they might be. Ministers, if they were wise, should rather encourage than attempt to depreciate an opposition, from which they might obtain. the most useful advice. In many cases, indeed, they had acted upon advice derived from that quarter, although so forward to traduce its consequence, at the time it was offered. Ministers were told by his right hon. friend, that if the daugers of the country were fully made known, the spirit of the people would be found ready to meet it, and this appeared from the result; but the complaint of his right hon. friend now was, that that spirit was ill directed, that the flower of the military strength of the country was locked up in the volunteer sy stem, and that the volunteers were governed by committees which were likely to become the focus of democracy. That such committees did exist was a fact quite notorious, and that six privates had, from their institution, the power of governing a whole corps, officers included, and of arranging every thing connected with its internal conduct, enforcing the attendance of members, infliction of fines, &c. With respect to the allusions made to the amount of the bounties given to the substitutes for the Army of Reserve, he could say from his own knowledge, that not less than 50 guineas were offered for substitutes in Middlesex. A man was known to hold a paper, pasted on the top of a pole, at Charing Cross, with an inscription of " 50 guineas for a substitute;" and his hon. friend had said, that 100 guineas had been advertised for two substitutes at the Market Place of Norwich. To prove the enormous bounties offered, in contradiction to the statement of an hon. gent. on the opposite side of the House, he could quote many other instances, but it was unnecessary, and would only serve to prolong the debate. -The learned member concluded with accusing ministers of running away from their duty, and declaring that he should always teel proud of having acted with his right hon. friend, in opposition to their system, whatever animadversion might be made upon him in that House, or whatever calumnies might

be propagated respecting him out of doors, because he was equally satisfied of the pnrity of his right hon. friend's motives, and the profound wisdom of his political conceptions.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer began by saying, that the learned member had concluded with a very heavy charge, indeed, upon his Majesty's ministers, namely, that they had deserted their duties and had given encouragement to a spirit of culumny; but, to whom the charge of dealing in groundless slander and detraction most properly applied, he would leave it to the House and the public to judge. Of the duty of a member of Parliament he was fully aware; and no man respected that duty more than he did. He knew that, consisteatly with that duty, every member of that House was bound to examine, and entitled to state fully, his opinion upon every public measure. He should be sorry to see that disposition damped by any fer of animadversion, or that the exercise of such an important right should become the subject of calumny. He admitted fully that a statesman should prefer the interests of the people to every other consideration, and that unpopularity should not restrain him from pursuing the course of measures which his judgment prescribed. For popularity, properly understood, he professed the highest respect, and should always feel a proper sollicitude; but, that ministers had ever betrayed any idle, vain wish for popularity in the system they had acted upon, as had been insinuated, he most pointedly denied. To what part of their conduct could the charge of endeavouring to court the people, be applied? Was it to be detected in their financial arrangements? Was it in the quantity of taxes they had imposed on the country? It would be recollected, on this point, that immediately after the conclusion of the last peace, an addition was made to the public taxes, which was equal to half the amount of the whole interest on the national debt, previous to the war which that peace termicated, and at the commencement of the present war, a further addition was made of twelve millions. From this it appeared that no less than 17 millions were added to the taxation of the country within the short space of 14 months. That is, not less than seven millions more than the whole interest of the national debt previous to the commencement of the last war. The financial proceedings, therefore, of ministers could not be said to manifest any very strong disposition to conciliate popular favour; and could that disposition be