It was claimed in that case, and the decision distinctly stated, that the railroads knew of the possibilities to move promptly between Franklin Park and the yards, and, as far as our road was concerned, also between Western avenue and the yards, and that even though we had the allowance of three hours, which was a little more than the average time consumed by the roads in the given period, that would not excuse us.

STATEMENT OF W. E. MORSE, GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT CHICAGO AND NORTHWESTERN RAILROAD COMPANY.

Mr. MORSE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, as concerns the Chicago and Northwestern Railway, we agree with the position assumed by the Milwaukee road and others here that it would be an impossibility for us to in all cases average a minimum of 16 miles per hour with stock trains.

I will undertake to avoid repeating what Mr. Bush has said in regard to the reasons for that disability, and try and enumerate a few that have not been mentioned, for which the shipper himself is largely responsible.

We have a great deal of difficulty with the shipper in loading his stock promptly. For instance, you start a stock train out from the station with two or three cars. They have cars to pick up at succeeding stations. It is a very common occurrence for the shippers at those succeeding stations to be late in loading, and that holds the other stock. I have in mind cases where in Dakota and Iowa this fall our stock trains were held for two hours for shippers to trade stock. They would get to bartering their stock after the train would get there and trade for two hours before we could get that stock train started again.

Mr. STAFFORD. Do you recognize any practice whereby the shipper will hinder the running of the train under those conditions you have stated?

Mr. MORSE. We undertake to avoid it, but we do not always have an officer on the train. It frequently occurs, and I could enumerate cases in evidence, if necessary.

Mr. STAFFORD. What is the practice as to collecting these stock cars on branch lines, as to whether the cars have to be already filled before the train arrives?

Mr. MORSE. Our instructions to agents are that the stock must be ready before the train arrives, but we are not able to enforce those instructions.

Mr. STAFFORD. Why not?

Mr. MORSE. If you will pardon me, I will explain. As a matter of fact, there is no class of shippers on the railroad to which the railroads uniformly cater to the extent they do to the stock shipper, in every respect. Of course our instructions are to the agents that the stock must be loaded before the train arrives, but as a matter of fact we rarely run away from a car of stock if it is not finished loading, or if we have not started loading. Sometimes the stock is late in arriving. It may not be the fault of the shipper.

Mr. STAFFORD. Is that the same practice you follow as to dead freight? If a carload of dead freight is not ready, do you wait until it is ready for shipment?

Mr. MORSE. No; not at all. We do not wait for dead freight. Mr. STAFFORD. Will you, then, explain why it is that you give this special consideration to the shipper of stock?

Mr. MORSE. Well, it is because the shipper is not always at fault, as I started to say. The man from whom he bought the stock may be late in delivering part of it. They very rarely buy a car of stock from any one farmer. He may have bought this stock to be delivered at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and the bulk of the stock will be there; but there will be one farmer with a load or two, or a drove, late, and he has to wait until it gets there. The stock may be unruly Very frequently there is a great difference, as any man who is familiar with loading stock knows, as to the loading of stock. You may load a car of stock in fifteen minutes, and it may take you two hours. It depends upon the stock. It depends upon the hour of the day. There are a great many things that the shipper has no control over that delay the loading of the stock and the movement of the stock that may be in the train at that time.

The other disability that the shipper is, we sometimes think, responsible for is the fact that they concentrate their shipments. Last Sunday night we brought into Chicago between six and seven hundred cars of stock. We have brought in 1,100 cars in one Sunday night, requiring from 20 to 25 trains to handle them. Out of 110,000 cars of stock delivered to the Union Stock Yards in one year, that I recall, 55 per cent of it arrived on Monday morning, 25 per cent of it arrived on Wednesday morning, and only 20 per cent the balance of the week. We handle about 160,000 cars of stock a year, and that ratio will hold good uniformly.

The result is that you have 35 or 40 stock trains, or from 25 to 40 stock trains, in a fleet. You have delayed passenger trains and mail trains that must be let by, and, despite any efforts you can make, you will have bad luck in some of those trains. We could not possibly make 16 miles an hour. Our stock schedules from the Missouri River to Chicago are based on a contemplated speed of 22 miles an hour. We make it with probably about 70 to 75 per cent of the trains. Our stock schedules in Iowa and in Illinois on the main line, the through movement, are based on about 20 miles per hour. On our branch lines, at which 75 per cent of our stock is assembled-and by branch lines I mean local loading; there is not over 15 or 20 per cent of our stock received from connecting lines; practically 75 to 85 per cent of it is loaded on the Northwestern rails-on the branch lines, where this stock is loaded, the time, excluding the stops, is about 17 miles per hour. Including stops it is about 8 or 9 miles an hour, and this stock comes in from these branch lines, as Mr. Bush has explained, in small lots, and it is absolutely essential for all the mainline trains to consolidate with these small lots.

Now, there is another point with reference to the tonnage. The average stock train on the Northwestern road is from 25 to 27 cars. In the last ten years our tractive power has increased with our locomotives 100 per cent, while our stock train has increased not to exceed 20 per cent. At the present time our stock trains average about 40 per cent, not to exceed 40 per cent, of the capacity of the locomotive. By the capacity I mean the dead freight capacity. I have some figures here which I will not take the time to read

Mr. STAFFORD. When you mention the dead freight capacity as your basis, do you mean the capacity of the engine or the average capacity of your dead freight trains?

Mr. MORSE. The rating of the locomotive for dead freight.

Mr. STAFFORD. What is the capacity of the tractive power for dead freight trains?

Mr. MORSE. What I mean is this. If an engine in dead freight is rated at a thousand gross tons we would not handle over four to five hundred tons of stock.

You see, our

Mr. STAFFORD. How much would you handle of dead freight? Mr. MORSE. We would handle a thousand tons. dead freight trains in Iowa and Illinois will run about 40 cars. With stock it will run from 20 to 25 cars.

Now, it seems to me, gentlemen, that, as Mr. Bush stated, the railroads are more interested than anyone else to expedite this stock, because, as a matter of fact, they are very glad to get it off their hands after they get it. It destroys the movement of all other traffic practically. In some cases it takes precedence over passenger

trains.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Has the speed been increasing or decreasing?

Mr. MORSE. The speed between stations has been increasing, but there is a point that Mr. Bush touched upon with which you are possibly not familiar. The introduction of safety devices, block signals, interlocked railroad crossings, and all those things, while they safeguard the operation of trains, retard the uniform movement of those trains.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Your road is double-tracked, is it not?

Mr. MORSE. It is double-tracked and electric-locked to Omaha. Mr. KNOWLAND. You could make a greater speed than a singletrack road?

Mr. MORSE. No; because the density of traffic is proportionately greater. Moreover, as I stated before, a railroad that is blocksignaled and has interlocking plants and the more modern appliances has slower train movement between two given points. They will run faster between stations, but they necessarily must slow down for these signals.

Mr. STAFFORD. That is the rule for freight trains, but it is opposite in effect as to passenger trains?

Mr. MORSE. No; I do not think so.

Mr. STAFFORD. The same applies to both?

Mr. MORSE. I think so.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Have you had many complaints from shippers on your road?

Mr. MORSE. Only individual complaints.

Mr. KNOWLAND. What percentage of the stock carrying do you have?

Mr. MORSE. I think we rank first or second. As I said before, we handle 110,000 to 120,000 cars a year into Chicago. We handle a large amount in to Cudahy, in Omaha, and to Sioux City.

Mr. KNOWLAND. You have had no general complaint?

Mr. MORSE. No general complaint.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Have you had much individual complaint?

Mr. MORSE. No; this winter we have had considerable on account of the bad weather, but ordinarily we do not get very many complaints.

Mr. KNOWLAND. Have you had any complaint from the associations?

Mr. MORSE. No, sir.

Mr. STAFFORD. What is the character of these individual complaints?

Mr. MORSE. Oh, they would have complaints where the engine would fail, or they would get a car off the track, or it would be foggy in the terminals, and the trains could not move rapidly in the terminals, and the man did not make the market. We get a complaint usually when a fellow reaches a falling market, but we never get any when he reaches a rising market, no matter how late he is.

Mr. STAFFORD. The proponents of this measure complain that there are delays in transit whereby the stock trains on the branch lines would move only at the rate, sometimes, of a mile an hour, whereby the individual could walk faster than the train and help push it along. Are there any instances of complaints of that character brought to your attention?

Mr. MORSE. I never heard of them. If you will think a moment, under the agreement of the railroads with their organization, and most of the railroads have that agreement, there is a movement of 10 miles per hour required, or a penalty. They penalize the railroads when they do not make 10 miles per hour with their freight trains. They penalize them through their organization, the engineers, firemen, conductors, and brakemen. Therefore it behooves the rail

roads to strive to make at least 10 miles per hour.

Mr. STAFFORD. That penalty is not imposed when there are good reasons existing for not going ahead?

Mr. MORSE. Oh, yes; in every case.

Mr. KNOWLAND. They also complain that you sidetrack live stock for fruit trains. Is that so?

Mr. MORSE. Well, I have no recollection of that. I do not think it is true. The schedule on the stock trains, as a matter of fact, is higher than fruit trains, and we have many cases where there are stock trains run from Clinton to Chicago ahead of our passenger trains, with orders right ahead of the passenger trains, 139 miles.

Now, we have some delays of stock that were touched upon by Mr. Bush, I believe, but it is very pertinent. Our stock is delivered to the Chicago Union Stock Yards Company at Ogden avenue. There are several railroads that use these tracks in common. Their own trains, their own cars, and their own engines take the stock to the yards; but the Northwestern, or the roads that use these tracks, are not owners of the tracks and have no control over their operation. It is very badly congested there, particularly on a foggy morning. Mr. Bush stated he had known 2,000 cars to be brought in there on a Monday morning. I have known 3,000; and they will come in there in six or seven hours. The stock shipper objects to reaching Chi ago or reaching any other terminal before 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. He wants to reach there between 2 or 3 o'clock and 8 o'clock. He does not want to reach there at 11 p. m. or 12 o'clock midnight. That is too early.

Mr. STAFFORD. Why does he regard it as too Mr. MORSE. He thinks it is a waste of time. and the market does not open, you understand. I could exactly answer that question.

early?

The stock is unloaded,

I do not know that

Mr. STAFFORD. It is not as convenient for him personally as a later hour?

Mr. MORSE. That is it, but he will strenuously object if you deliver his stock to the market, the Union Stock Yards, before 12 o'clock, as a general proposition. The result is that all this stock is massed in a few hours. If it happens to be foggy and you have a hundred trains, all using the same tracks and all coming up and unloading at the same chute, you can appreciate that the movement is very slow. The trains proceed very carefully as there is very dense fog in that vicinity. There is no place I know of, except possibly London, that has worse fogs than Chicago. We allow four hours for the terminal movement.

Mr. RICHARDSON. As I came in the room a moment ago I heard you make some remark about the railroad being penalized? Mr. MORSE. Yes; with their organizations.

Mr. RICHARDSON. For not running more than 10 miles per hour? Mr. MORSE. For not making 10 miles an hour. All the western schedules are based upon the payment of 10 miles per hour.

Mr. RICHARDSON. That is applicable to the transportation of stock? Mr. MORSE. No; to everything; to all freight.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Do you pay that penalty frequently?

Mr. MORSE. We have to pay it if we do not make it.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And you do not make it at all in stock cars loaded with stock on branch lines, do you?

Mr. MORSE. No; not as a general proposition, on branch lines.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Some gentlemen have stated here that under no circumstances could you make 10 miles an hour on branch roads, where they gather the stock chiefly?

Mr. MORSE. No; they can not.

We do not.

Mr. RICHARDSON. And yet under the law you are penalized?

Mr. MORSE. Not under the law. You misunderstood me. It is an agreement with the labor organizations. It is called overtime. For instance, a crew going 80 miles will get 100 miles for it, or ten hours, based upon the 10 miles per hour. If they do not make that 80 miles in ten hours, you pay them 10 miles per hour for every hour over that. It is an agreement with the labor organizations, the engineers, firemen, conductors, and brakemen. It is not the law. Mr. KICHARDSON. That has a bearing, then, upon the sixteen-hour matter?

Mr. MORSE. No; it has the bearing that the railroads are undertaking to make at least 10 miles per hour. There was a question asked that brought out that proposition.

Mr. KICHARDSON. I was not in here when you brought it out.

Mr. MORSE. Therefore the railroads are undertaking to make at least 10 miles per hour with all their freight, whether it is dead freight or what it is.

Mr. KICHARDSON. By agreement with the labor organizations? Mr. MORSE. And they are penalized if they do not do that with the labor organizations.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You pay the labor organizations?

Mr. MORSE. We pay them overtime, when they do not make the 10 miles per hour.

Mr. STAFFORD. They do not pay the labor organizations, Judge. They pay the members of the crew.