organization in the event it should develop along those lines. This amending and confirmatory act provided that there should be power in the conservatory to establish branches in the various States to serve the musical requirements of the entire United States. Mrs. Thurber is entirely familiar with musical conditions in the East, in the West, in the North, and in the South of this country; she has had pupils from every part of the country. She has thrown her entire fortune into the cause of music, and she has repeatedly trained and developed men and women of unusual talent from every part of the United States. As I conceive it, the work in the District of Columbia would be more or less on what I think you musicians call the creative side of music. It was Mrs. Thurber who brought to this country as director of her conservatory the great Antonin Dvořák, the composer of the New World Symphony; in fact, if nothing else had been done we have in that a piece of work that is of an outstanding character and that will live, I think, as long as our country shall live.

Mr. WOODRUM. Is she the president of the conservatory, Judge? Judge BAYES. Yes. Now, a question has been raised here in regard to commercialism-one of the speakers referred to that. Now, commercialism is just the opposite of what this conservatory has practiced-it is just the opposite of its profession and its practice. The aim of the conservatory has been to find unusual and highly promising talent-to find the spark of real ability and to furnish conditions whereby it may be developed. That is the true democracy of God-given talent, and I think there is no one who will disagree with the proposition that that is something that ought always to be encouraged. It may be said that anyhow genius finds its way. Perhaps it does; I am not prepared to say or to prescribe its limitations. But, in any event, a great national conservatory here, operated in the District of Columbia along creative lines, and if it developed so that it might establish contact branches throughout the country, would be, to my mind, the consummation of a dream that ought to be possible of realization, in consequence of the marvelous educational, industrial, and financial advance this country has made in the last 50 years. I say, gentlemen, I do not believe there is anything we can not have in America to-day if we want it and if we want it sufficiently so that we will throw aside the little petty differences-anything that comes up will always be opposed by this individual or that individual, or the other individual-or there is the cry, "Why do you not do it in some other way"-but what I say, Mr. Chairman, is if this committee sees fit to report out this bill, and if it is enacted and approved, that it will constitute at least the beginning of something that will be very real and very great in the musical history of this Nation.

Mr. LANHAM. May I ask another question, Judge? I am compelled to go to another committee, but I would like to ask this in view of some experience the Government has had with reference to donating land for such institutions. What, if you are advised, are the conditions with reference to financing this project, and what are the assurances that funds will be available to carry it through to completion?

Judge BAYES. I have conferred with Mrs. Thurber upon that and all she asks is the opportunity, without any embarrassment either to her or to the Government, of a reasonable period of time. This

building would probably have two concert halls in it, and I understand there are people who are prepared to undertake the financing of those two halls; it would be no inconsiderable part of the project. Mr. LANHAM. You can appreciate the importance of the inquiry from our standpoint. For instance, we have now the foundations for a memorial building here; the foundations have been completed for some time but the work of the superstructure lags and funds are not available and, consequently, the grounds are left in a more or less unsightly condition, and perhaps the foundations are deteriorating through exposure and now they are asking the Government, in view of the fact funds are not available, to take it off their hands and go ahead and erect this building for that purpose. You, naturally, can see we do not want any duplication of that history, and that it becomes a matter of prime importance to us to know, or have reasonable assurance, that there will be no doubt about the financing of it and that it will not be put back on the hands of the Government with the request that funds be made available by general appropriation.

Mr. FISH. May I interrupt right there? I will be very glad to accept any amendment to the effect that the site should not be granted until 50 per cent of the money is raised-or all of the money raised. Any safeguarding provision at all will be entirely satisfactory to me and to the National Conservatory of Music of America; I wish to emphasize that.

Mr. LANHAM. Well you understand we simply do not want any repetition of the George Washington Memorial instance.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to say here I would not want to favor a proposition of this kind to allow anybody to go in upon a Government site and start a building until they had enough money on hand to complete it.

Judge BAYES. Mr. Chairman, may I say that in my opinion the committee is entirely justified in taking such an attitude, and Mr. Fish has already indicated that he would sponsor any such amendment and I will say to him and to you, in behalf of the National Conservatory of Music of America, we will be very glad to have anything of that character done, because this other situation that arose stands there as an illustration, and certainly the committee would not want anything of that character to be repeated, and neither would we. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FISH. I would just like to read this clause in the bill now:

Provided further, That no work shall be commenced on said building or buildings until the said National Conservatory of Music of America shall present satisfactory evidence to the said Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks of the National Capital that it has sufficient funds in hand and in prospect reasonably to insure the completion of the proposed building or buildings.

So, as far as that goes, that matter is taken care of in the bill already and

The CHAIRMAN. Cut that word "reasonably" out and it would help some.

Mr. FISH. Yes; if you make it stronger we will be only too glad. Mr. WOODRUM. Have you available, Judge, the charter of the National Conservatory of Music of America?

Judge BAYES. I do not have one here, but will send to the chairan a copy of both charters.

Mr. WOODRUM. Is the National Conservatory of Music of America in existence at the present time?

Judge BAYES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. Can you give me a list of the faculty?

Judge BAYES. I can not furnish it here, but will transmit that information to the chairman if you wish.

Mr. WOODRUM. Where is it located?

Judge BAYES. In New York City, at 53 West Seventy-fourth Street.

Mr. WOODRUM. How much of a building and equipment have they?

Judge BAYES. They have a building there-I do not know just off-hand the ground measurements of it-a brown stone building; I think it has three floors and a basement.

Mr. WOODRUM. Are all of the branches of music being taught? Judge BAYES. I can not tell you as to that. Personally, I am not on the faculty and am not really connected with that phase of it. I am a member of the bar of the city and my contact with the conservatory has been gained through an association for some years with the late Judge Choate.

Mr. WOODRUM. Do you happen to know, under the terms of the charter, how the faculty of the National Conservatory of Music of America is made up; who does the selecting of the members of the faculty and passes on them?

Judge BAYES. Well, there are no restrictions.

Mr. WOODRUM. But how is it made up-who selects the president, and who fills the vacancies?

Judge BAYES. Well, when you read the act you will find there are specific names mentioned in it.

Mr. WOODRUM. In the charter?

Judge BAYES. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. You do not know how a vacancy in the faculty would be filled?

Judge BAYES. Yes, I think I do; I think it would be filled by the trustees.

Mr. WOODRUM. Well who are the trustees; do you know that? Judge BAYES. I have not the names here; it can boast, however, of a long and distinguished list of sponsors; the late Andrew Carnegie, for example; the last August Belmont; Judge Choate, throughout his life; the late Judge Lawrence, and Hon. Chauncey M. Depew, I think, was one of the trustees for a great many years.

Mr. WOODRUM. Judge, I would just like to make this suggestion to you: I think it would be very desirable to have our hearings carry in quite full detail just exactly the personnel, the make-up, of this faculty-the board of trustees, its membership and how it is selected; a statement of the school equipment, its activities, etc. I am sure you will realize that if the Government designates a plot of ground to build in Washington a National Conservatory of Music of America it thereupon puts its seal and hand on the ability, efficiency and integrity of the people who will run that institution and, in that respect, the National Conservatory of Music of America would have a tremendous prestige over and above any other school, teacher or impresario in this country. And so, the Government does not want to sponsor anything that is not right; and the first question Congress

is going to ask will be who are the people identified with the management and operation of the National Conservatory of Music of America or what does it amount to; is it a group of grasping musicians who see here an opportunity to secure the support of Government backing, or is it an outstanding group of people whom the Government could sponsor and hold up to the American people as representatives of the highest type of musical thought, knowledge and practice?

Judge BAYES. I would say on the question of the sponsoring of the National Conservatory of Music of America by the Government that that bridge has already been crossed in the chartering of this institution by the Government. And I may say, further, there are two questions in which the committee is interested: First, the financial ability of the National Conservatory of Music of America to carry through its project and, secondly, the ability and character of its administrative and faculty personnel; both are important and, I assure you, both of these questions can be and will be met by us to the full satisfaction of both this committee and of Congress.

Mr. COHEN. Is this institution now under the New York Foundation?

Judge BAYES. It is not.

Mr. COHEN. What is the difference?

Judge BAYES. The New York Foundation was formed under the will of the late Augustus D. Juilliard and I have examined that portion of the will relating to the creation of the foundation. It sets up, I think, a board of trustees and then provides also that application might be made to the State of New York for the creation of a foundation. It operated for some years, and is operating today. Within the past year, as I recall, or thereabout, this subsidiary coordinating committee if I may call it that was established, although the real authority still rests with the trustees named under the will, and successors appointed as provided therein. Mr. Bradley is here and has had official contact with the New York Foundation, and could tell you a greeat deal more about the set-up than I can; what I have said might be incorrect.

Mr. WOODRUM. Is anybody here from the National Conservatory of Music of America-any member of the faculty, that you know of?

Judge BAYES. No, sir; there is not.

Mr. MAGRADY. Can we get for the record a copy of the by-laws of the National Conservatory of Music of America?

Judge BAYES. If you wish, yes, sir; I will be glad to transmit these to the chairman.

Mr. CRAIL. Has any plan for financing this proposition been definitely worked out?

Judge BAYES. The matter has been taken up-the attitude of the musical world is a rather peculiar one; the people will put their money into such a project as this when they have a concrete, specific proposition. There are a great many people in this country who are interested in the fostering of music on a national basis and, I think, within a reasonable limitation of time this committee and the Congress will be fully satisfied as to the financial ability of the National Conservatory of Music of America to go ahead.

Mr. CRAIL. I gather the plan contemplates the sale of stock.

Judge BAYES. No, sir; there is no stock and there will be no stock-none at all; it never has been done that way, and could not be because it would be wholly out of line with the proposition.

Mr. FISH. These people back of this are music lovers-one of the principal sponsors has spent several million dollars of her own means in the interest of the promotion of music.

Mr. ESLICK. As I understand it, it is not planned for commercial profit; is that right?

Mr. FISH. If it were I would not have anything to do with it, and the whole musical world would be against it.

Mr. CRAIL. This testimony so far has been of a very indefinite nature and I am frankly still not satisfied with this proposition so faras it has been outlined here. There have been too many instances where the Government has been induced to get behind some such a movement or project, supposedly for the benefit of the public, and, after all, promoters have gotten their fingers in for a very large percentage of the money; and I would just like to find out whether you are going to be able to actually carry this thing out through voluntary donations alone?

Judge BAYES. There would be nothing given out in the way of special rights of any character-no stock issued and no scrip; it is to be purely and absolutely handled on a donation basis.

Mr. FISH. Among the indorsers of this bill are the Music Merchants Association, of Ohio, the National Association of Music Merchants, of New York City, and The National Federation of Music Clubs, and I have letters from each of these associations herewhich I shall not read but which I will ask be placed in the record.

Hon. R. N. ELLIOTT,

Chairman Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds,

MARCH 3, 1928.

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. DEAR SIR: The National Conservatory of Music was originally established as the American School of Opera on September 17, 1885. Its first quarters were on East Seventeenth Street in the city of New York. The incorporators included W. R. Grace, August Belmont, W. K. Vanderbilt, Henry G. Marquand, Parke Godwin, Andrew Carnegie, Richard Irvin, jr., Joseph W. Drexel, William G. Choate, Theodore Thomas, Jesse Seligman and F. B. Thurber.

Subsequently the name was changed to the National Conservatory of Music of America.

On March 3, 1891, the President approved an act of Congress incorporating the National Conservatory of Music of America. This measure provided that J. M. Thurber, William G. Choate, Chauncey M. Depew, Abram S. Hewitt, Frank R. Lawrence, William Pinckney Whyte, Enoch Pratt, Fitz Hugh Lee, William H. Payne, Oliver Risley Seward, John Hay, S. P. Langley, Anthony Pollock, C. P. R. Rodgers and John M. Schofield should constitute a body politic and corporate by the name of the National Conservatory of Music of America. with power to found, establish, and maintain a national conservatory of music within the District of Columbia for the education of citizens of the United States and such other persons as the trustees might deem proper in all branches of music. The charter also conferred upon the conservatory the power to grant diplomas and the degree of doctor of music or other honorary degrees.

On March 4, 1921, the President approved an amending act which substituted the names of certain persons in the place and stead of others mentioned in the original act and further conferred upon the conservatory the power to establish and maintain branches outside the District of Columbia.

For many years the conservatory was maintained at No. 126 West Seventyninth Street, New York City, and for the past several years has had its quarters at No. 53 West Seventy-fourth Street, New York City.

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