Mr. LANHAM. It is contemplated, then, that this institution would be endowed?

Miss BOARDMAN. I can not speak for that.

Mr. FISH. I will answer all questions of that nature.

Mr. LANHAM. I beg your pardon; I just wanted to get the information while the thought was fresh in my mind.

Mr. FISH. I wish now to present to the committee Mrs. Walter Howe, who is an accomplished musician herself.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mrs. Howe, we will be very glad to hear what you have to say.

STATEMENT OF MRS. WALTER HOWE

Mrs. HowE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have very little to say. I think there should, indeed, be such a national institution, and that it should be placed here in this beautiful city. I put it in that order simply because the city does not essentially need the conservatory-it is going to be more and more a beautiful city, anyway-but music in America does need this help, and I feel this conservatory should be a truly great educational institution. But I wish to say, in my opinion the need is not at all confined to the idea of affording opportunity to promising pupils; its effect should reach much further than that I have in mind the development of the musical taste and abilities of the children of the public schoolsand I think the granting of this land for the purposes of this bill will be a great step toward helping in every direction the advancement of musical education in this country, and I am strongly for it.

Mr. LANHAM. May I ask a question? Is it customary for those who develop special talent along some musical line to go to Europe to study because of the superior advantages offered there? For instance, I recall here just a short time age one of the well-known radio concerns-I think the Atwater-Kent Co.-held a national singing contest, as the result of which one young woman and one young man showing special talent would be given the opportunity to enjoy a period of study in Europe, with their expenses paid. Is this proposed institution designed to obviate any necessity of these promising pupils going to Europe for further instruction?

Mrs. HowE. Yes; I understand that is the object of this movement. Our young men and young women have been going to Europe because it has been considered necessary, and there is a sort of distinction surrounding a European musical education.

Mr. LANHAM. And do you think the establishment of such a conservatory here would obviate that?

Mrs. HowE. Yes; I do. I think it would very soon show the results we desire in that direction; a great national institution of this kind, particularly by reason of its location in this great world capital, would carry with it considerable distinction and would help tremendously.

Mr. FISH. May I introduce now Col. U. S. Grant, 3d.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Grant.

STATEMENT OF COL. U. S. GRANT, 3D, DIRECTOR OFFICE OF PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND PUBLIC PARKS OF THE NATIONAL CAPITAL

Colonel GRANT. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I certainly and most whole-heartedly feel as do the preceding speakers as to the desirability of helping in the establishment in Washington of anything that will give public approval to improvement in the fine arts, and particularly music, but I am an engineer and not a musician and my opinion is not worth very much in that line. So my only excuse for being here is to state that this bill is apparently so drawn as to protect the interests of the United States in the matter of not giving up land for this purpose and then having the purpose not carried out. I do believe this is an important matter and one in which Congress will be interested, and I think in drawing this bill special thought was given to that fact. One of the provisions, for instance, is that the said National Conservatory of Music of America shall not have any power or authority to grant or convey said lands or any portion thereof. I think that proviso was intended to answer one of the questions asked here by a member of the committee a few moments ago whether it would be desirable to amend that proviso so as to state that the title to said land shall remain in the United States and in case it is not used for this purpose it would revert to the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Grant, do you not think if this bill is ever reported out there should be a provision in there prohibiting the location of this institution in any of the public parks?

Colonel GRANT. Yes, sir; although I thought in leaving the selection of the site to the Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks and the Fine Arts Commission that was guarded against. It would be very helpful, however, for our guidance to have it definitely stated in that way, or that it should not be located in any public grounds where its location would be inconsistent with the purposes for which the grounds were purchased. I believe it would be better to put it that way than to put in a prohibition against the location of the institution in a public park; because the term "park" is taken by the comptroller as meaning the appropriation out of which the land was bought and the purpose for which it was bought, and I believe some such proviso as I have suggested would perhaps be a bit better. The CHAIRMAN. Are we to understand the Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks and the Fine Arts Commission are opposed to locating any of these buildings in the public parks?

Colonel GRANT. On land definitely bought for park purposes; yes, sir. There are certain pieces of land that have been bought for park purposes which have been kept in mind always as possible sites for buildings of this character; for instance, in the Mall, where the Department of Agriculture greenhouses are located. While that might be considered park lands in the definite terminology of the word "parks," it has always been held in mind as a very good site, perhaps, for a large art gallery, and I think the Public Buildings Commission has that in mind as you probably will remember; and in the same way there will be considered, under this bill, the reservations A, B, C, and D, at the east end of the Mall, which will make available one or two of those farthest sites on the south side of the Mall.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe either reservations C or D would be a good location for an institution like this?

Colonel GRANT. Well, I merely point out that it might be a possible one, sir; whether it would be the best location or not is something I do not feel prepared to answer offhand, because I know so little about the needs of a conservatory of music.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, reservations A, B, C, and D are being taken over for the purpose of constructing these public buildings. Colonel GRANT. Yes, sir; the ones on the north side, A and B, of course, are. Now, it would be a question in the minds of Congress, perhaps, or those to whom this authority is delegated-I suppose the Public Buildings Commission would have to act on it-as to whether a site on the south side of the Mall-whether both sites should be retained for public buildings or given for some such purpose as this or such as they have in mind for an art gallery. The National Museum has already been put in there, and the Smithsonian Institution on the south side.

Mr. DALLINGER. Colonel, in view of the fiasco in the case of the George Washington Memorial on the corner of Sixth Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, do you not think it would be well to have incorporated in this bill some sort of an amendment as suggested, providing that the building must be constructed within two years after the grant, or some certain time, or else it will revert back to the United States? Colonel GRANT. It might be well to have some limit on the length of time the site will be retained by the National Conservatory of Music of America for this purpose.

Mr. DALLINGER. In other words, not to have it tied up. There is a possibility, under this bill, that the site will be designated and then the building will not be constructed until the money is raised. That might go along for a long term of years and that site be kept from being used for another purpose, and if some time limit of two, four, or five years, or something of that kind, were put in there, it would terminate their holding of this land in the event of their being unable, for some reason or other, to go through with the project.

Colonel GRANT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LANHAM. To what extent is there precedent for donating land to institutions chartered by Congress?

Colonel GRANT. The only two cases-three cases, that I think of right now are the Smithsonian Institution, the Pan American Building, and the Academy of Science. I do not know of any others offhand.

Mr. LANHAM. And the George Washington Memorial.

Colonel GRANT. Yes; the George Washington Memorial.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the Daughters of the American Revolution buy their site?

Colonel GRANT. I am not sure about that. The Government maintains supervision over that, but I would have to look that up. I know my office has the obligation of seeing that they do not carry on any activities there which will produce commercial or private profit; but I can not say just now about the other.

Mr. REED. Colonel Grant, have any tentative plans been submitted or anything indicating the amount of land to be required for this purpose?

Colonel GRANT. No, sir; that is the reason I am not prepared to answer as to what will be a good site for it, because I do not really know just how large a site is desired.

Mr. REED. What I had in mind is if this should be a very popular institution, as it undoubtedly would, like most good institutions, and would grow by leaps and bounds-and I believe it would, as there is a great demand for such an institution in this countryit would be very important that we start out with a plus sign rather than a minus; we too often start out with the minus.

Colonel GRANT. That would be the great disadvantage of any site near the mile limit along the Mall, and, on the other hand, that is not so true of the two sites thought of as possible sites, one just beyond the Academy of Science building, in which case the construction would work back to a not very expensive neighborhood at the present time, parallel to the Naval Hospital, and another site is in public ownership near the Naval Observatory circle on Massachusetts Avenue which, of course, would not be very limited.

Mr. REED. Just one other question: Is it customary to have the approval of the Fine Arts Commission on the unit plan as applied in the construction of Government buildings; is it not difficult to do that?

Colonel GRANT. No, sir; the Academy of Science building had the approval of the Fine Arts Commission, under similar conditions, and you will see if you will walk behind it that it can be added to.

Mr. REED. That would be important in this case of an institution that is likely to grow. I am just interested to know that it is large enough to begin with and that there is sufficient land and everything provided so it can grow and expand according to its popularity.

Colonel GRANT. The question of size is one that can not be settled offhand; it should be very carefully studied.

Mr. KERR. Let me ask a question here, Colonel, with respect to the rights of this corporation: Is that sufficiently safeguarded in this bill, or does it not simply give them an easement as long as they use it for that purpose and no other otherwise it goes back to the Government?

Colonel GRANT. When I first saw the bill it seemed to me it was only an easement-however, as I say, I am not a lawyer and, looking at it more carefully, Mr. Fish might wish to make it state definitely that the title is in the United States and on the conclusion of this use for this purpose it would revert to the United States, or something of that kind.

Mr. FISH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce Judge William R. Bayes, formerly county judge at Brooklyn, who will be glad to answer all questions propounded to him. Judge Bayes represents the people of New York City, who expect to raise this money, and is familiar with the details.

The CHAIRMAN. We shall be glad to hear Judge Bayes.

STATEMENT OF JUDGE WILLIAM R. BAYES

Judge BAYES. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, what I have to say falls under two subjects. The first is as to the bill itself that is now before the committee. As I read the bill

there is an authorization to the Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks of the National Capital to select and set apart a suitable and proper site for a building or buildings for the purpose specified. There is also in the measure a provision that the plans for any building or buildings to be constructed on the site shall be approved by the Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks of the National Capital and the Fine Arts Commission. Then there is a further provision to the effect that the National Conservatory of Music of America shall present satisfactory evidence to the Director of Public Buildings and Public Parks of the National Capital that is has sufficient funds in hand reasonably to insure the completion of the building or buildings. And, finally, and what seems to me to allay all possible doubt as to the character of the interests or rights of the conservatory if this bill were enacted, we have the provision that the National Conservatory of Music of America shall not have any power or authority to grant or convey said lands or any portion thereof, and I take it to be an assured fact that anything I may have which I may not convey or grant to another I have only by way of user, and that was the point mentioned by one of the speakers this morning-to the effect that the grant of use should be sufficient and, so far as the National Conservatory of Music is concerned, any amendment or amendments which the committee deem to be wise, either to clarify or make more certain the status of the Government under this measure, would be entirely satisfactory. It is perfectly manifest, in view of other experiences, that the Federal Government would not be justified in committing itself for a long and indeterminate period to any project of any character whatsoever, and we should not ask it.

The other subject is as to the conservatory itself. It is not too much to say that Mrs. Jeanette M. Thurber has spent her entire life in music and in the arts, but more particularly in music, with a very broad and liberal education both in this country and abroad; with a talented mind, with enthusiasm, and with vision she has wrought and, in my judgment, accomplished much. The National Conservatory of Music of America

Mr. WOODRUM. Pardon me, Judge; I did not get the name.

Judge BAYES. Mrs. Thurber; Mrs. Jeanette M. Thurber, of the city of New York.

The National Conservatory of Music of America was chartered under an act of Congress which was approved by the late President Harrison on March 3, 1891. Hon. William D. Choate was at that time counsel for the conservatory and had a great deal to do with the outlining of the purposes of the building. That act had a limitation in it to the effect that the conservatory, when and as established, should be limited to the confines of the District of Columbia. Mr. WOODRUM. Have you a copy of that act available? Judge BAYES. Not with me-not available now.

Mr. WOODRUM. If you will, please furnish it to the stenographer so that it may be placed in the record.

Judge BAYES. I will be glad to do so.

Then on March 4, 1921, the late President Wilson signed an amending and confirming measure, a rechartering, so to speak, of the National Conservatory of Music of America, the idea being to put it upon such a legal basis as to enable it to be a truly national