age limitations or marriage limitations in a contract we negotiated with them.

Mr. SCHERLE. Mr. Chairman, do we have anything on file as to why the basis has been set at 33 or 35, for termination of service?

Mr. DENT. We have only the testimony from the management association which was presented on the 15th. I received it in the last 3 minutes. I know there are three recommendations made, the Air Transport Association makes three recommendations in line with all the thinking to this moment of the committee itself in their discussions. They recommend preemption by the Federal Government so crossing State lines does not present a problem.

Mr. SCHERLE. If I may I would like to have permission from the committee to write a letter or two to the various airlines and enter their reply as a matter of record.

Mr. FORD. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. SCHERLE. Yes.

Mr. FORD. I believe there is a body of correspondence. Our colleague, Mrs. Green, had some interesting correspondence with, I believe it was, United Air Lines, which got some publicity just before election last year. I think when this committee held previous hearings that correspondence was put into the record.

Mr. DENT. The staff has taken advantage of that. However, I might say to the gentleman you certainly have the privilege and right to correspond and the committee will be happy to receive your correspondence as part of the official record.

Mr. SCHERLE. An additional question: Even if age is not acknowledged in the contract or in the hiring procedure, the airlines could still use age as a discriminatory measure for termination of service, and they would not have to acknowledge this as such. What control would you have over this procedure?

Miss BOLAND. I think we have said in our statements and also have recognized that the job has physical qualifications, physical requirements to perform the job properly. At any time any flight attendant whether it be male or female, if that person is unable to perform that job, this would be because age has contributed to slow down their physical ability or whether some other factor is a part of it.

But the airlines have this right and do continually use such a right to terminate the employment and if it is for good cause and good reason, it is upheld. I would like to point out in exactly this line that we have pursers, or men; as an example, TWA employs some 200 pursers, four of those pursers have had heart attacks and are disqualified physically from flying, not one woman of their 3,000 has had a heart attack.

Mr. SCHERLE. I think perhaps my question was not clear. Let us say age is completely obliterated from the hiring practice, let us say that since the airlines tentatively set a figure of 33 or 35 for termination of service, they could still resort to this figure if in their own minds they feel this is the age when retirement should be in force. They could still use this arbitrary figure for discontinuance of service without telling you as much. They could give you a multitude of reasons for stating you are no longer needed in this occupation, couldn't they?

My question is: How could you be sure this is not still age discrimi

Mr. O'CONNELL. I think the answer to that is that every girl when she reaches the age of 32 is fired. On a case-by-case she would have to give a different reason.

Mr. SCHERLE. Of course, they would even if they felt 33 or 35 was the termination point.

Mr. O'CONNELL. Then we have the procedure, the grievance procedure under each contract to test each case.

Mr. SCHERLE. This would be hard to prove and enforce?

Mr. O'CONNELL. We are administering it every day.

Mr. SCHERLE. Is American Airlines the only carrier with a discriminatory practice on age?

Mr. O'CONNELL. That we represent. Northwest had it and it was negotiated out of the contract in May. Southern Airways had 35, it was negotiated out in June. TWA had 35 and it was negotiated out last week.

Mr. SCHERLE. It is being discontinued?

Mr. O'CONNELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHERLE. Yours is a matter of time, isn't it?

Mr. O'CONNELL. Yes, sir; but why should we suffer this cruel arbitrary denial of jobs until we can reach contract agreements?

Mr. SCHERLE. This is what I would like to find out from management. My other question is this: When you are hired with the understanding that your service is to be terminated at age 33 or 35, what are the retirement benefits accrued during that time?

Miss BOLAND. There are none.

Mr. SCHERLE. When you are fired you are through?

Miss BOLAND. That is correct, that is the end.

Mr. SCHERLE. Is there a program provided for employees, for those retired?

Miss BOLAND. Yes, but the plan is usually age 65.

Mr. SCHERLE. There are no special benefits even when application is made for short-term employment?

Miss BOLAND. The retirement plans of all management is geared to 65, in some cases 60 as for pilots.

Mr. SCHERLE. What is the percent of turnover prior to mandatory retirement? How many really serve until they are fired?

Miss BOLAND. I would say approxamately 10 percent or possibly even less than 10 percent.

Mr. SCHERLE. No more questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DENT. Thank you, Mr. Scherle.

The gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Pucinski.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was interested in your observation that two stewards had suffered heart attacks while none of your women had suffered any heart attacks. What you are saying is women are more durable?

Miss BOLAND. I didn't intend to imply that. I just wanted to point out if there was a thorough medical concern that was a bona fide reason for age limitation, it could not be limited to women.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I wish you would attempt to imply that. I think women are stronger than men, more durable than men. I see the girls running up and down those aisles every day on the planes we travel. I think in many respects women can take it much more than men can except that there are very few that want to admit it.

I was happy to hear you make that admission. Having said this, I was interested in the question by Mr. Scherle.

Mr. Chairman, I wish we would get before the committee a rationale of the industry in picking the figure 32. You have in American Airlines now a rather significant number of women who are working as stewardesses beyond the age of 32 who came into the program prior to 1953, right?

Miss BOLAND. There are very few left because, these people having the age policy the longest of any airline and having had the earliest age limitation, have forced the termination from the stewardess crops of most of the people over 32.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I think Mr. O'Connell made the point, both you and Mr. O'Connell, if we are to challenge the validity of the arbitrary cutoff for stewardesses at age 32, we then obviously have to challenge the validity of the automatic cutoff in this bill. I was wondering, Mr. Chairman, if we should have some information here as to the rationale of making this bill applicable to only those between the ages of 45 and 65.

As Mr. O'Connell points out, if you are going to have a bill dealing with age discrimination it would seem to me you should have it across the board. What was the rationale?

Mr. DENT. The gentleman asks a very good question. This legislation, of course, came down to the chairman from the administration and for their own reasons they decided age 45 would be the bottom level, the benchmark. However, in all the reports from the Department of Labor that I have seen, age in aging problems with respect to employment are cataloged on the basis of 40 years of age. I was rather surprised to see the age 45 in the legislation.

This member takes a dim view of the age limit of 45 in the legislation. Mr. PUCINSKI. I am glad to hear the chairman say this because I would be hard pressed to justify that kind of arbitrary discrimination in the bill and then on the other hand turn around and say to American Airlines, we will have to go along with your rationale on age 32. It seems to me if you are going to have a bill dealing with a ban on age discrimination you ought to have it across the board and let everybody adapt to it.

Isn't that the suggestion you are making, Mr. O'Connell?

Mr. O'CONNELL. Yes, sir; that is our suggestion.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I think the Air Transport Association indicates the same thing. They are perfectly agreeable to it.

Mr. DENT. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. PUCINSKI. Yes.

When the chairman asked me to yield, I believe Mr. Ford wanted to explain how this 45 figure got in the bill.

Mr. FORD. I think the main reason it is here is that the pressure for this legislation started actually with some of the industrial loaders who are confronted with an arbitrary rule which has hovered around the 45-year age for employment of factory workers. Again it sprang up as a real problem that was recognized for the first time on a broad scale in the late fifties when the automation problem hit industries like steel, automobile industries, and banks. One of the immediate reactions of labor to this has been to push at State level as well as in Washington

Their attention has been focused on fellows in their forties with maybe 20 years in a plant; a machine comes along and takes his position in the plant. They give all kinds of reasons.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I do think, while I certainly appreciate the explanation, it is still an arbitrary decision and I would be hard pressed to try to justify that kind of arbitrary approach.

Miss Boland, it is my recollection that the first stewardesses, when the whole system of stewardesses was started by airlines in this country, were substantially older ladies than 32. If my memory serves me, believe the first stewardesses were actually nurses?

Miss BOLAND. Yes, and because of the nurses training required I don't believe anyone started much younger than 24 or 25, many at age 29. I think it is interesting to note that United Air Lines claimed the first for having stewardesses in the sky, those registered nurses and yet as late as 1965 they suddenly decided they need to have a compulsory age limitation.

Mr. PUCINSKI. You see, I am afraid young ladies are becoming victims of a so-called jet-set syndrome that is setting into America. People like this young lady, who will be 33 years old tomorrow, are becoming forgotten citizens. Take a look at all the commercials on television, all the commercials in the newspapers, take the Pepsi-Cola set, Coca-Cola set, the cigarette ads, everything today is being geared to create the impression that the young mass are the only part of generations of Americans.

The fact of the matter is half of the population of this country or a substantial part of the population in this country is substantially older than 35, and they don't go surfboard riding, don't go around in hotrod cars, and it seems to me this emphasis on the young does put people beyond 32 and 35 into a difficult position.

Mr. O'CONNELL. If I might answer one of your questions on the 45-to-65 age issue, I think the attention of the administration and the Secretary of Labor, the Labor Department was directed not so much toward our problem of terminating services but to the problem of employing those people who are between these ages who just cannot get a job. This is the reason for the 45-to-65 limit. Our problem is we are on the job, are working and are no longer able to perform this service at the age of 32 or 35.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I suggest what you have to offer would be very much appreciated. Miss Boland, you reach 33 tomorrow?

Miss BOLAND. Miss Erikkson will be 33 tomorrow; I passed 33 many years ago.

Mr. PUCINSKI. You will never get a man in public office to admit you are beyond 32.

Nevertheless, it is my understanding that a company, in this case American Airlines, does find these young ladies other jobs. The problem I think this committee would be confronted with is that they really are not serving their employment.

The company advises us that they find these young ladies jobs with comparable pay or better pay and they do various other things to retain the employee. Is that correct?

Miss BOLAND. There are alternatives given to the stewardesses of American. They have one alternative of flying to age 33 and leaving or

the alternative of taking other work with the company. This is true, with a minimum guaranteed wage. But regardless of this, we still feel this discrimination.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I agree with you but in trying to write this bill I am trying-I will appreciate any suggestions that you or Mr. O'Connell may want to make-in trying to write this bill, how do we write in the law a provision that there shall be no discrimination because of age and job classification. The bill here is directed at a company that refuses to hire you for no other reason than because you are 45 years of age. I hope we are going to remove that 45 limitation so the bill will provide, I hope, that it shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer to say to you, Miss Boland, "You meet all the qualifications of my company except you are too old and, therefore, we don't hire you."

We want to have legislation which says he can't use that as a bar to hiring. That is for the initial hiring. He hires you for his company. Now the question we are really confronted with-if you have suggestions I would appreciate it—how do we go beyond that and say, "Well, you can't discriminate because of age in classification"?

Maybe Mr. O'Connell may have a suggestion.

Mr. O'CONNELL. In Executive Order 11141, issued by President Johnson, the policy provides that contractors and subcontractors shall not discriminate on account of age in hiring, advancement, discharge, terms, conditions or privileges of employment. When they say that a girl

Mr. PUCINSKI. He is talking about employment. Here is an airline that says "We are not cutting these girls off; we are giving them another job."

Miss BOLAND. This is a condition of employment.

Mr. PUCINSKI. I don't think you have met the question I have asked in trying to draft this legislation. Here is a company that says, "We are not firing this girl, she can stay with us as long as she wants, the only thing is she can't be a stewardess." I am trying to find out how we can write in this legislation-if you have suggestions I want them-how can we guarantee this young lady the right to continue being a stewardess?

If you are going to bar discrimination on the classification of a job, do you then propose to extend it across the board to every job? Does that apply to pilots? Suppose a company feels this pilot is no longer capable of flying the plane but would make an excellent employee in another department.

I hope you get my point. We have already established we do not believe a company should be permitted to refuse to hire a worker because of age. I think we are in agreement on that. Now, the question this committee is going to be confronted with is can we extend this to the next echelon and write in some limitations as to the classification of the job within that company?

Miss BOLAND. I would feel this comes under the meaning of "terms and conditions of employment." A condition of employment has to be the classification or type of work that you can continue in that job and the terms of employment would have to cover this particular situation. Mr. DENT. Will the gentleman yield?