trative duties.

This additional personnel will work under the general super

vision of the forest supervisor and the superintendent.

The junior forester is needed to assist in the management of the forest on the Navajo Reservation. This work includes fire protection and the cutting of timber by Indians for fuel and the development of their homes and for the operation of their sawmill. During the fiscal year 1939, 30,574,000 feet b. m. were cut on the Navajo Reservation. The difficulty in obtaining proper reproduction of that forest due to climatic conditions and the use being made of the area for grazing purposes makes it essential that the cutting of timber be carefully supervised.

The item of travel expenses includes gasoline and oil for the operation of automobiles and trucks, per diem and other necessary expenses for the employees while in travel status.

It is essential to provde field employees means of transportation for the reason that their work is spread over a very wide area. Without dependable transportation their services would be of relatively little value. In addition to automobiles and trucks there is need for other equipment with which to carry on the field work.

MANAGEMENT OF FOREST AND RANGE LANDS ON INDIAN RESERVATIONS

Mr. LEAVY. Will you go ahead and state what justification there is for this increase?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes. I would like to make a short statement with respect to our activity in the management of forest and range lands. In order to justify the appropriation we have set up a statement outlining the resources, the income, and the expenditures for the administration of these lands. The management of the forest and range lands is a business which produces an income to the Indians and indirectly to the people who are engaged in or benefit by the utilization of the resources. The area involved is 46,000,000 acres of forest and range lands. Of this area 16,000,000 acres are forest lands and 30,000,000 acres are open range lands. We have indicated that 512,000,000 board feet of timber with a stumpage value of $1,441,845 were cut during the fiscal year 1939.

Mr. LEAVY. Do these 46,000,000 acres include practically all your Indian reservations in the continental United States?

Mr. ARNOLD. Most of them, outside of Oklahoma. We have not included Oklahoma in this compilation.

Mr. SHEPPARD. May I ask why not?

Mr. ARNOLD. The forest and range lands in Oklahoma are pretty badly broken up and widely scattered over the State. They are very difficult of management in logical units. The Indian Service recently acquired several thousand acres of timber land in Oklahoma which is now being protected from fires through the cooperation of the C. C. C.-I. D. Should money become available, we would consider putting men in Oklahoma to supervise the management of those lands.

Mr. SHEPPARD. Because as I understand from the statement and from the set-up, do you, that is, the Indian Department, or the respective department through which you represent it, have any holdings in the State of Oklahoma?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes; the Indians own forest and range lands in Oklahoma. Most of these lands are allotted, except the timber lands which were recently acquired.

Mr. SHEPPARD. Those which have been recently acquired are under your jurisdiction or, that is, under the jurisdiction of the Department?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes.

Mr. SHEPPARD. And is the expense and income from this evidenced here in the report, with respect to Oklahoma ?

Mr. ARNOLD. No. We have not placed a man in that area to supervise the use of those lands. They are being administered by the local Indian agency, however. They are not being neglected. We do not have the personnel to look after all of the lands. As a matter of fact, we have reservations in the West with forest and range lands which are not under the direction or supervision of an employee of the Forest and Grazing Division.

Mr. SHEPPARD. How recently were those purchases made in Oklahoma?

Mr. ARNOLD. That I cannot tell you definitely, but I believe they were acquired about 2 years ago.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Within the past 3 or 4 years.

Mr. SHEPPARD. Is there any timber being cut from them?

Mr. ARNOLD. Very little. There are some Indians living in the area, but from the reports we receive there is very little timber being cut on those purchased areas.

Mr. SHEPPARD. Very well.

Mr. ARNOLD. I might point out that the work of Foresty and Grazing Division is exceedingly important not only to the Indians in the management of their resources but also to the people, the nonIndians who live on and in the vicinity of the reservation. Generally, the latter are somewhat dependent, and in some places very dependent on the forest and grazing resources being utilized. For example, Omak, Deer Park, and Hoquiam, of Washington, Klamath Falls in Oregon, McNary in Arizona, and other communities are supported to a large extent by timber operations on Indian reservations. Also many communities where the raising of livestock is the principal industry, are dependent, more or less upon grazing privileges extended to non-Indians on Indian range land.

RATIO OF COST OF ADMINISTRATION TO INCOME

In connection with our expenses I would like to point out that the ratio of cost to income is approximately 15 percent. This indicates a very low cost for the amount of business being done.

Mr. SHEPPARD. In other words, you use that as overhead, the volume of business handled; is that correct?

Mr. ARNOLD. It may not be strictly overhead but it is the cost of supervising the utilization of those resources by the Indians and by the non-Indian operators. This, we feel, is an exceedingly small ratio and we point to the fact that for the administration of the O. and C. lands in Oregon the law permits the use of 25 percent of the income therefrom. This is also true in Canada in the management of Crown lands.

While we feel we have done a good job with the money made available to us and with the personnel we have been able to employ, yet the results are not entirely satisfactory for the reason that we are not able to make and to carry out necessary plans for the conserva

tion of the forest and range resources, including, of course, soil. In some instances soil erosion on Indian lands is quite bad-especially in the Southwest.

NEED FOR ADDITIONAL LOOKOUTS AND FIRE GUARDS

We are asking for 10 additional lookouts and 10 additional fire guards to give the forest and range resources on Indian lands better protection. This we feel is a very modest request, especially when you take into consideration that the money available for the employment of temporary labor necessary for fire protection and for administration is not sufficient to man the 135 lookouts we now have. That does not include any employment for other necessary work. The fire guards are very necessary in the control of fires and are needed in forming a skeleton fire organization on many Indian reservations throughout the West.

Mr. SHEPPARD. By the way, would you rather finish your statement without interruptions? If you would, I am perfectly willing for you to go ahead.

Mr. LEAVY. I think it would be better for the witness to go ahead and make a general statement then we can interrogate him. We can make some notes as he goes along.

Mr. ARNOLD. The rest of the statement involves other increases. If you prefer a general statement with reference to those increases, I will make it.

Mr. LEAVY. Go ahead and give us that statement, if you will.

ADDITIONAL RANGE GUARDS

Mr. ARNOLD. We have asked for range guards for the United Pueblos Agency, N. Mex. These guards are essential in the management of those range lands which are located in 19 pueblos scattered over a considerable part of New Mexico. These lands, for the most part, are badly overgrazed. There is accelerating erosion on most if not all of them. Most of the Indians are obliged to depend on their livestock industry for a living. And in their efforts to improve their economic condition they have overstocked the range for many years, which has resulted in substantial damage to the forage and to the soil. For the past 5 or 6 years, the Civilian Conservation Corps, Indian Division, and the Soil Conservation Service have expended liberal sums to control this soil erosion. Unless we can carry out the plans which have been prepared for the proper use of the lands, the money which they have expended will be largely lost. It is necessary that the stocking of these lands be reduced. This must be done with considerable care so as to avoid serious disturbance of the economic life of those Indians. We feel that this item is especially important.

ADMINISTRATIVE PROMOTIONS

The item with respect to administrative promotions, of course, needs little comment because it is essential that employees be given promotions from time to time.

Mr. LEAVY. That matter has been definitely disposed of, I think, by the appropriation committee so I think we will need no statement on that.

Mr. ARNOLD. Now, if you would prefer to review those items we have discussed we can do so. I have not discussed the important item for Navajos. If you have any questions with respect to the first three items, I will be glad to answer them as best I can.

Mr. LEAVY. I have several questions I want to ask you. Of course the Omak is getting its timber supply from the Colville Indian Reservation?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is correct.

Mr. LEAVY. And the Yakima Reservation which has quite a lot of grazing land is down in southeastern Washington. And the Klamath Falls Indians have a great deal of timber there?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is correct.

DISPOSITION OF RECEIPTS FROM SALE OF TIMBER AND FROM GRAZING

Mr. LEAVY. Of this increase of one-hundred-and-some-thousand dollars you are only asking for $10,000 for forestry and a sum quite in excess of that for conservation work, aren't you?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is correct.

Mr. LEAVY. So there is no great expansion in your forestry program in the estimates of this year over that of last year?

Mr. ARNOLD. No. They are very modest.

Mr. LEAVY. But your forest receipts are greater last year than they were in the previous year?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes; there was some increase.

Mr. LEAVY. The receipts from both timber and grazing go where? Mr. ARNOLD. They go to the individual allottees whose lands are being used or to the tribes.

Mr. LEAVY. But none of them are covered into the Federal Treasury?

Mr. ARNOLD. The tribal receipts for our organized tribes are covered into the Treasury.

Mr. LEAVY. As a trust fund?

Mr. ARNOLD. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. But not for use by the Federal Government for its general expenses?

Mr. ARNOLD. No.

Mr. LEAVY. And, of course, in that respect the forest activities in the Indian Service are quite different from the forest activities in the national forest?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is right. Receipts in the case of the national forest go into the Treasury as public funds.

Mr. LEAVY. Receipts from the national forest go into the Treasury?

Mr. GREENWOOD. I think we should point this out, Mr. Leavy. There is an 8-percent deduction made from the proceeds of the sale of timber which is deposited into the general fund of the Treasury. Mr. LEAVY. So from this aggregate of timber sales from Indian lands last year of something in excess of a million dollars, 8 percent would go into the Federal Treasury to pay for that item in part?

Mr. ARNOLD. Eight percent of the gross receipts from the sale of timber is deposited in the Treasury.

Mr. LEAVY. Do you know how that compares with the expenses under your general appropriation?

Mr. ARNOLD. It is much less than that. The reimbursement is made on account of the appropriation "Expenses, sale of timber (reimbursable)."

Mr. LEAVY. What I am coming to is this: Would it or would it not be feasible for the protection and preservation of these forest lands costs to be cared for out of these receipts?

Mr. ARNOLD. Of course, the receipts are far in excess of the cost. But when you take into consideration that much of this land is allotted it would be very difficult for the allottees to carry the total cost of administration in many cases. This is particularly true with respect to range lands.

Mr. LEAVY. When you take 8 percent out do you take that out of allottees' sales as well as the other?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is right.

Mr. LEAVY. Could you give us any information that would enlighten us on the matter of how much would have to be taken out to meet what is being spent for the protection and maintenance of this forest and Indian lands?

Mr. GREENWOOD. During the fiscal year 1939 a total of $117,764 was covered into the Treasury to reimburse the United States on account of an appropriation of $120,000 that was made on a reimbursable basis. Now our expenses during the fiscal year 1939 from that appropriation were $110,551, so that we covered in approximately $7,700 more than we expended in that particular year.

Mr. LEAVY. In your forest program?

Mr. GREENWOOD. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. So that was almost a self-sustaining program?

Mr. COLLIER. I think that is an incorrect inference though, isn't it, Mr. Greenwood?

Mr. GREENWOOD. As to this particular appropriation, it is.

Mr. COLLIER. You would have to take into consideration all the appropriations for forestry work. There is a part of the total expenditures which is not reimbursable.

Mr. LEAVY. But in the appropriation we have under consideration here, that is all in the nature of a gratuity?

Mr. ARNOLD. That is right.

Mr. LEAVY. Why do you except the Menominee Indian Reservation from any of these provisions?

Mr. GREENWOOD. The timber expenses for the Menominee Reservation are paid from the funds of the Menominee Indians.

Mr. COLLIER. The timber operations there are carried on by the Indians themselves.

Mr. LEAVY. Is that a successful operation? Are they exceeding their revenues?

Mr. ARNOLD. It is a successful operation.

Mr. LEAVY. Why wouldn't it be well to transfer all of the receipts of that type?

Mr. ARNOLD. We do at Menominee where a sustained operation is being conducted.