The shortness of time allotted to the conduct of the hearings in Dayton has resulted in the necessity of continuing that hearing by calling several witnesses for further testimony.

Mr. Counsel, you may call your first witness.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Robert A. Carter, will you come forward, please?

Mr. VELDE. Will you raise your right hand?

In the testimony you are about to give before this committee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARTER. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT ALAN CARTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, HAROLD A. CRANEFIELD AND JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR.

Mr. TAVENNER. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. CARTER. Robert Alan Carter.

Mr. TAVENNER. I notice you are accompanied by counsel. Will counsel please identify themselves for the record?

Mr. CRANEFIELD. My name is Harold A. Cranefield. I am an attor-
ney of the Michigan bar and of other States and Federal courts.
Mr. RAUH. My name is Joseph L. Rauh-R-a-u-h-Jr., 1631 K
Street, Washington, D. C.

Mr. TAVENNER. When and where were you born, Mr. Carter?
Mr. CARTER. Born in Flint, Mich., July 1, 1916.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Carter, you are not called before this committee on the basis of any testimony or any information or belief on the part of the Committee on Un-American Activities that you have ever been identified in any way with the Communist Party.

You are called here for the sole purpose of answering questions regarding your knowledge, if any, you have regarding Communist Party activities in the area of Flint, Mich.

I believe you are the regional director for the UAW-CIO in the Flint area, are you not?

Mr. CARTER. Yes; Flint, Lansing, Fenton, and Owosso.

Mr. TAVENNER. That is the area which is covered by your regional directorship?

Mr. CARTER. Yes; it is.

Mr. TAVENNER. What is the proper designation of your region! Mr. CARTER. It is region 1-C.

Mr. TAVENNER. How many local unions are included within your directorship, and what are their names?

Mr. CARTER. I couldn't quote them all verbatim or the exact number. I can start reading them off and hope that I get them all.

In Flint we have AC Spark Plug Co., Buick, Chevrolet, Turstedt, two Fisher Body plants, Palace Travel Coach, Standard Cotton, and several smaller plants that come under the Palace Travel Coach local. Mr. CLARDY. Under the Palace, you say?

Mr. CARTER. Under the Palace local. It is an amalgamated local. Mr. CLARDY. Sort of a subsidiary to that main one or a branch! Mr. CARTER. No; they are a part of it. You see, where there are small locals which cannot maintain themselves, we make them all a part of the large local, and they all have an equal voice.

In Fenton we have 2 or 3 small industries-Fenton Tool Industry; Fenton Tool & Die. I am not sure of it.

In Owosso we have Redmond's Auto-Lite and several smaller locals that are part of the Redmond local, Redmond amalgamated.

In Lansing we have Oldsmobile, Fisher Body, Reo, and 724, which takes in several small unions.

Mr. CLARDY. Is Motor Wheel in that group?

Mr. CARTER. No; Motor Wheel is an American Federation of Labor

union.

Mr. TAVENNER. Over what period of time have you been the regional director of C-1?

Mr. CARTER. I was elected in March of 1951.

Mr. TAVENNER. Have you held any positions within that region in the union prior to your elevation to your present position? Mr. CARTER. Oh, yes; several.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you describe the principal positions?

Mr. CARTER. I was president of A. C. local; I was chairman of the bargaining committee in A. C. local; for 3 years I was—

Mr. TAVENNER. Excuse me. When were you president of the A. C. local?

Mr. CARTER. 1947 until 1948, the spring of each year. I am not sure of the exact date; 3 years preceding that I was chairman of the bargaining committee in that local union.

I was three times president of the Greater Flint Industrial Council; then a district committeeman; served as labor's representative on the OPA in the area; been vice president of the State ĈIO; and probably a lot of other ones; but those are the principal ones.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Carter, during the course of the hearings which this committee conducted in Detroit, and in Flint during April and May of 1954 a secret directive of the Communist Party was brought to light which exposed the Communist Party plan to colonize industry.

It was the view of this committee that this plan of colonization was designed to strengthen Communist Party units in that vital area, and that it was also intended to make available in that area intelligent and trained Communist Party leadership for future activity in that area. The effort exerted by the Communist Party to put that plan into effect and the extent of its success is under a continuing investigation by this committee.

Quite a few witnesses were heard on that subject, both at Detroit and in Flint.

Quite a number of persons answering the category of colonizers, as I have indicated, were identified in the testimony taken at those two places.

The September 8, 1954 issue of the State Journal, a newspaper published in Lansing, Mich., has come to the attention of the committee, in which it is reported that you made a statement in the course of a speech which you delivered on the preceding day before the Lions Club and the Optimist Club in Lansing, indicating that you have some knowledge on that subject, and it is with regard to that I desire to question you particularly.

This news article referred to quotes you in this manner:

"These 27"—

48861-54-pt. 11

the 27, parenthetically, related to certain individuals who had been identified as colonizers during the course of the testimony before the committee

"were known before Kit Clardy and his House Subcommittee on Un-American Activities ever probed into the situation," Carter declared.

"Seventeen of them,” he stated, "were known just as soon as they showed in meetings. Most of them were sent to Flint from New York and most of them were educated in the City College of New York. They were spotted because they talked way over the heads of the union man and because they knew nothing of automobile-plant work," Carter said.

The speaker said, "The other 10 were regular automobile-plant workers, and although it took a little longer we found them out."

Were you correctly reported in that article?

Mr. CARTER. Well, pretty close to correct. The quoting of the figures, of the amount of people, is not correct.

I don't believe I quoted a figure. I believe, if my memory serves me right, either fortunately or unfortunately-I don't know which-I never write a speech and I have no copy of the speech; but, as I recall, I said that no one was exposed that we already do not know.

Now, it is actually only a partial quote there, too, because if I may go a little further than your question on this matter, my speech in front of the Lions club was on the subject of capital and labor's part in democracy, and this was only a small portion of the speech, and it followed the newspaper article in Flint which had quoted the chairman of the subcommittee as stating that he had exposed many people who held key positions in our union in the city of Flint, and that is what brought about my discussion when I said that was not true, that no one who was exposed held any key positions in our union. Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Clardy.

Mr. CLARDY. I didn't see that and I have made no statement about exposing men in key positions in the union.

I wonder if you have a copy of the quotation of the speech?

Mr. CARTER. Unfortunately, I don't have that, and I believe, Congressman, it occurred in the Flint News-Advertiser, because I got clippings in the Journal. I didn't get that one.

Mr. CLARDY. If you could get it and give me a reference, I would appreciate it

Mr. CARTER. I certainly will.

Mr. CLARDY. Because what I did say was that we had exposed some 27 colonizers and that there were 75 that we knew about yet to be exposed.

There was no reference made to any position that they occupied, but I did make this very clear and I apprehend that you didn't get it: that a Communist in any organization, my own, yours or any other, is dangerous to America regardless of the position that he occupies. Now, that is what should have been quoted.

I see that you were given credit for saying 27. I apprehend that was because we had exposed 27 and they wove that into the story with your merely saying

Mr. CARTER. It is a minor statement, anyway.

Mr. CLARDY. That is right.

It wasn't germane, really, or necessary.

Mr. CARTER. If I could have a couple of minutes, I think I could clear this matter up and clear up our position also, if you would care to let me talk for a couple minutes here to clear it up.

Mr. TAVENNER. I will be very glad to let you make any explanation you desire, but I believe for the moment if you will let me ask

I say I believe that is entirely in order, but I believe before you make your explanation I would like to ask you 1 or 2 questions, following up the question that I just asked you.

You stated that the article which I read was in substance correct, and I am referring now particularly to your statement that 27 persons were known to you, or at least those that the committee had identified were

known to you.

Now, I want to ask you whether you will furnish the committee with the names of any persons in addition to those 27 whom you place in the category of colonizers.

Mr. CARTER. I want to say this, at the outset: That I don't have any legal or probative evidence that any person is a member of the Communist Party. Therefore

Mr. CLARDY. Pardon me. You mean even including the 27 whose identity we revealed in Michigan?

Mr. CARTER. Legal or probative evidence I don't have on any of them.

Mr. WALTER. As I understand the witness, then, what he stated was a mental operation. It was a conclusion he reached because of certain things that happened, but he did not have the kind of evidence that is admissible in a trial in court.

Isn't that it?

Mr. CARTER. That is correct. My obligation as a union officer requires me to keep close watch on as many of our membership as we can, and while I may know it myself, I do not have legal or probative evidence.

Mr. CLARDY. Would it be fair to say, then, you had what amounted to a suspicion or a belief that some of them were members, but that, unlike the committee, you did not have any evidence of probative value that could have been produced to prove that those people were? Mr. CARTER. Just one second.

(At this point, Mr. Carter conferred with Messrs. Cranefield and Rauh.)

Mr. CARTER. As I stated previously, I don't have legal or probative evidence, didn't have then, but my beliefs are my own, of course.

Mr. CLARDY. Oh, certainly; and nobody is criticizing you for that because even the committee has many times concluded in its own mind that somebody may be a member of the party or not a member and still not be able to clinch it, and we try, and I think we succeed, never to have anybody identified before this committee unless and until we have evidence that will stand up and that will clinch it.

Now, on those 27 irrefutable evidence was produced before the committee, not only in Michigan, but at other places, linking these people with the Communist Party, and I assume that one of the things that made you say what you did was that you accepted our conclusionat least in part-as proof in support of your belief.

Am I not correct there?

Mr. CARTER. I had those beliefs, Congressman, a long time before your committee was there.

Mr. CLARDY. Well, you couldn't do anything about it for the reasons you have indicated?

You didn't have any proof; so, you had to keep it to yourself?
Mr. CARTER. That's correct.

Mr. CLARDY. Thank you.

Mr. TAVENNER. I think that clears up the question I had in mind. The inference from the article was that you knew you had knowledge of Communist Party membership of these colonizers, but actually it was a conclusion which you had reached on speculation and surmise and not on any tangible evidence.

Mr. WALTER. I think it was more than speculation, because, after all, when people are experts in this field they can spot a Commie in 5 minutes, and it is more than speculation.

While you can't prove a man has a card in his pocket, nevertheless his activities at a union meeting brand him as indelibly as if he had a great, big sign across his forehead.

They are not kidding as many people as they think they are, particularly labor leaders.

They don't kid them for one minute.

Mr. CLARDY. All of which prompts me, if I may, Mr. Chairman, to ask this question: When you had some pretty definite suspicions of that kind, why did you not bring that to the attention of the prior committee back in 1952?

Mr. CARTER. You are referring, I assume, Congressman, to the Mallard committee?

Mr. CLARDY. No, no. You are talking now about the testimony you gave in March of 1952 before an assistant attorney general, where you testified under oath, much as you are testifying now.

Mr. CARTER. Yes.

Mr. CLARDY. Now, I am saying this: If you did have such strong beliefs and suspicions, even though you didn't have proof, how did it happen that you didn't bring it to the attention of the House Committee on Un-American Activities or one of the Senate committees at that time that were deeply engaged in trying to help you clear the unions of Communist influences?

Mr. CARTER. Well, Congressman, we have done a pretty good job of clearing the unions of Communist influence by ourselves, and we haven't had to ask for outside help to do our job.

Mr. CLARDY. Well, you didn't get rid of any of those 27, did you? Mr. CARTER. Congressman, I think you ought to check the provisions of the Taft-Hartley law and you will find out the only way we can bar a person from working in the plants or belonging to our union is by their refusal to pay dues.

Now we have consistently asked for changes in the Taft-Hartley law, even its repeal. We haven't gotten it.

Mr. CLARDY. You misapprehend what I was getting at: I started off by saying: Why did you not bring it to the attention of the committee?

Mr. CARTER. I think my first answer to that, Congressman, answers that, where I said I have no legal or probative evidence, and I can say further on that score, Congressman, from listening to the transcript of the hearings, as was played over the air in Flint, when you held the hearings there, and reading them in the papers, and so forth, I assume