Wednesday,] EARL-FITCH-CHAPIN-LOCKWOOD-BROSNAN-BANKS-NOURSE. [July 20. a committee, to procure the facts and prepare passed upon. In the amendment which we now the figures upon which to base the necessary action. Mr. EARL. I hope the suggestion of the gentleman from Humboldt (Mr. Banks) will be agreed to. We can adopt in blank certain sections, making these restrictions, and after that it will be wholly a question of figures, and it seems to me unnecessary for the whole Convention to sit here and deliberate upon questions of figures only. Mr. FITCH. I think the course suggested by the gentleman from Humboldt is the best we can adopt. We can take up Section 1 and discuss it, and if it is the sense of the Convention to restrict the Legislature in that particular, we can refer it to a committee to fill the blanks, and so on with the remaining sections. Mr. CHAPIN. For the purpose of getting at the sense of the Convention, then, I will withdraw my motion that the committee rise. Mr. FITCH. I trust that a vote will be taken in the committee on Section 1. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman has withdrawn his amendment, but it will be in order to offer it again. Mr. FITCH. I will renew the amendment, and I trust that Section 1 will be read and passed upon. The SECRETARY read Section 1 of the substitute proposed by Mr. Fitch. Mr. LOCKWOOD. I think the compensation of the Legislature is already fixed, elsewhere in the Constitution. The pay of Senators and Representatives is fixed at ten dollars a day, I think. The CHAIRMAN. No, sir. It is provided that the Legislature may establish the compensation, and there is to be no increase during the term of the incumbents. No specific sum has been mentioned in the Constitution, so far as already adopted. Mr. BROSNAN. I call the attention of the Convention to Section 34 of the article entitled Legislative Department, which reads as follows The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman had better let the Secretary read it as engrossed. The SECRETARY read as follows: SEC. 33. The members of the Legislature shall receive for their services a compensation to be fixed by law, and paid out of the public treasury; but no increase of such compensation shall take effect during the term for which the members of either House shall have been elected; provided, that an appropriation may be made for the payment of such actual expenses as the members of the Legislature may incur for postage, express charges, newspapers, and stationery, not exceeding the sum of sixty dollars, for any general or special session, to each member; and furthermore provided, that the Speaker of the Assembly, and Lieutenant Governor, or President of the Senate, shall each, during the time of their actual attendance as such presiding officers, receive an additional allowance of two dollars per diem. Mr. BANKS. It will be observed that there is nothing incompatible between the section as proposed, and the restrictions contained in the section in this article which we have already have under consideration, the Legislature fixes the salary, but subject, of course, to the proposition made by the gentleman from Storey, (Mr. Fitch,) if we shall choose to adopt it. Mr. FITCH. I hope the section will be adopted, and then we can report it back, and in the Convention can appoint a committee to to fill all the blanks. Mr. BROSNAN. I have no objection to this section, except that it seems to me misplaced where it is now. It fixes the salaries for two years, I believe. The CHAIRMAN. No, sir; they are all blank, yet; but the blanks can be filled at any time. Mr. NOURSE. This first section refers to the salaries of State officers, I believe. Mr. FITCH. Yes, sir. Mr. NOURSE. Well, I do not know as I have any objection to that, nor to the bulk of this proposition. I have a great deal of confidence in the Legislature, provided their hands are pretty well tied, and it seems to me that this proposition, in its general scope, gets at the correct doctrine on that subject. The objection to a Constitution, so far as interfering with legislation goes, it appears to me, has no weight, except when the Constitution undertakes to do affirmative acts, which should be left to the Legislature. But the chief object of a Constitution seems to be to restrict the Legislature from doing affirmative acts which might be harmful to the people, and this provision simply restricts the Legislature in that respect. And now I wish to say, although it is not strictly in order, in regard to that amendment proposed by me, that I offered it in terrible earnest. [laughter,] because that was a class of cases, the extent of which, in the way of expenditure, could not be foreseen, by any possibility. The CHAIRMAN. It is not in order to speak of a proposition which is not before the Committee. Mr. NOURSE. Very well. I wish to say, so far as this amendment proposes to restrict expenditures, so far as it proposes to restrict the Legislature from putting us to improper and unbounded expense, I like the proposition; and I shall therefore vote for the first section. I think it is a proper restriction. I do not vote for it as an argument in favor of a State Government, but because I think it is right that in this matter the Legislature should be restricted. It seems to me that that is a strong and sound argument in favor of the section. But when it comes to restricting the Legislature in its expenditures for certain purposes, for which the amount that will be needed cannot by any possibility be foreseen, I shall of course reserve to myself the right to vote against it. The question was taken on the adoption of the section, and it was adopted. Mr. FITCH. I now move the adoption of Section 2. Wednesday,] BANKS STURTEVANT-NOURSE-FITCH. [July 20. The SECRETARY read Section 2 of Mr. | in my experience the working of a similar proFitch's substitute, and the question was stated vision, the result of which was very favorable. on its adoption. Mr. BANKS. I understand that these sections are being separately introduced from time to time. The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; each section is offered and voted upon in its consecutive order, as I understand. Mr. BANKS. Very well, sir. Now in that section there are some things of which, with my present knowledge of the matter, I approve, but there are others that I think are very questionable as matters of State policy, and therefore I ask a division of the question, that the vote may be taken separately upon each of the several items. Mr. STURTEVANT. The gentleman had better move to strike out. Mr. NOURSE. Allow me to make a suggestion, which is, I think, a capital one, and that is, that the best way to restrict the appropriations, and to prevent the expenditure of an unreasonable amount of money by the Legislature, is to make the legislative expenditures the last item. The Legislature will then take mighty good care not to run up the items which precede their own compensation to a very extravagant amount. It strikes me very favorably, certainly, and I think there is no better way to secure economy in the State Government than to make the legislative pay the last item. Mr. FITCH. Was the gentleman ever in California during the days of the transfer of the Swamp Land fund? Mr. NOURSE. I have only been through that State; I did not tarry. Mr. BANKS. For the sake of practical convenience I simply ask for a division, and then we can vote on each subdivision of the section as it occurs. The CHAIRMAN. There being no objection, the section will be divided in the manner indicated by the gentleman from Humboldt, and the question now will be on the first subdivision. The SECRETARY read the first subdivision, as follows: "For the first —— years succeeding the formation of a State Government, the Legislature shall not appropriate more than the sum of -dollars per annum for the support of the State Prison." Mr. FITCH. Here is something which has been handed to me, and I will ask that it be read for information. I am inclined to like it very well. It is designed as a substitute for Section 2. The SECRETARY read as follows: SECTION 2. For the first two years after the adoption of this Constitution, the Legislature shall not levy a tax for State purposes exceeding one per cent. on the taxable property of the State, nor shall any appropriation be made exceeding the said revenue, paying-first, the interest on the State bonds; second, salaries of State officers; third, State Prison expenses; fourth, educational appropriations; fifth, Legislative expenses. Mr. BANKS. I am some how or other very much inclined to approve of that. I have seen We have a case in point in the city of San Francisco, where the expenditures previous to 1856 were enormous beyond all reason, but the Legislature of California adopted a provision similar to this, in regard to the amount of taxes that might be assessed and collected, and the result was just this, that the legislative body of that city was forced to contine itself within a given expenditure, and they did so not only without difficulty, but with perfect facility. It is true the amount was exceedingly, even parsimoniously small, but yet, like persons similarly situated in private life, they have managed to get along with the amount of revenue they had. They did not live beyond their means. And I like, too, the order in which this is arranged. Now, sir, the gentleman from Storey (Mr. DeLong) has alluded, in a low tone of voice, to the condition of legislators here at the capital under certain circuinstances, but in answer to that suggestion I will say that those gentlemen have a perfect right to stay at home if they prefer it, and if they do come to the Legislature they do so with a full knowledge of their own financial condition, and that of the State, and the probable amount of revenue at their disposal. They will not be deceived in the matter. They will not come here expecting to find an overflowing treasury, from which they can at once receive their pay, but they will come here with a full knowledge of the fact that they will not receive their pay for some time after they arrive, and they can, if they please, exercise their constitutional privilege of staying at home. I think the provision would result in securing a wiser, more economical, and more honest set of men in the Legislature. With my present view of the subject I think the provision is an admirable one. I think it will cover all the ground of the first proposition of the gentleman from Storey, (Mr. Fitch,)—that it will accomplish all the results which he hopes to secure, and that it will do so in a clear, tangible manner. I Now, sir, one word in regard to the matter of the popularity of this Constitution. Thus far I have voted on every proposition coming before us here, without reference to any pressure resulting from the popular sentiment on this or other matters. I came here to adopt a good Constitution, such as the people ought to support, and I regard it as one of the essential elements of a good Constitution, that it shall contain restrictions compelling economy. have seen and know something of legislative their disparagement, or in disparagement of the bodies, and without wishing to say anything to gentlemen who may assemble here to pass our laws, I do say this, that we, here, as a Constitutional Convention, can, and should, in view of what we know of other States, and of legistion in this Territory, fix a limit beyond which of fixing definitely the amount of expenditures the Legislature shall not pass. I am not in favor Wednesday,] FITCH-CHAIRMAN-STURTEVANT-COLLINS-LOCKWOOD. for each of the separate departments, but I am in favor of placing restrictions on the officers of the government, in respect to the expenditures of the State Government. I believe this amendment places those restrictions in such a form that they will be appropriate and advantageous to the people, and successful in their results. Mr. FITCH. On reflection, I will ask leave to withdraw Section 2 of my original proposition, and having made one or two verbal alterations I will offer this in its place. I will read it myself, as the handwriting is rather ob scure. SECTION 2. For the first after the adoption of this Constitution, the Legislature shall not levy a tax for State purposes exceeding per cent. on the taxable property in the State, nor shall any appropriation be made exceeding the said revenue, paying-first, interest on the State bonds; second, salaries of State officers; third, State prison expenses; fourth, educational expenses; fifth, legislative, miscellaneous, and contingent expenses. I desire to say, in offering this amendment, that it seems to me to meet the objections which have been urged by yourself, Mr. Chairand the gentleman from Washoe, (Mr. Nourse,) and at the same time it fully covers the ground intended to be covered by my original proposition. man, The CHAIRMAN. Permit me to make a suggestion which will probably obviate the necessity of my leaving the chair, that a question might arise whether the bonds of the State of Nevada alone, and not of the Territory, were included in the provision for the payment of interest. Now it is contemplated that we shall assume the bonds of the Territory and its entire indebtedness, and there are not only bonds, but also outstanding warrants, etc. Mr. FITCH. Then by the consent of the Convention I will change it to " interest on the public debt;" so that it will read-1st. Interest on the public debt." The CHAIRMAN. Then it will correspond with the section as it stands in the old Constitution, providing that the State shall assume the indebtedness of the Territory. Mr. STURTEVANT. I will read, for information, from the statutes of the last session of the Legislature, to show what will be the amount of Territorial indebtedness which we shall have to assume. On page 66 is " An Act to provide for a Territorial Prison," on account of which the balance of the appropriation due is sixty thousand dollars; on page 81 is "An Act to encourage enlistments and give bounties and extra pay to our volunteer soldiers," for which the appropriation is one hundred thousand dollars; on page 90 is "An Act to issue bonds and coupons," the appropriation in that Act being one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. The whole amount of all these appropriations is three hundred and ten thousand dollars. Mr. COLLINS. At first view, this new section strikes me as covering the entire ground. I have not had time to look at the amendment [July 20. critically, but certainly it is clear that under it only one per cent. can be levied on the taxable property of the State; that is clear, at least. Then it says: "Nor shall any appropriation be made exceeding the said revenue.' Does this mean that there shall be no provision made for the payment of any expenses beyond that amount? or that no debt shall be contracted that shall exceed that amount? There has been a section passed already in regard to the revenue, providing that the State may incur a debt not to exceed a certain amount. I would ask if this will allow the Legislature to complete the complement of that debt-if the Legislature would have permission, by virtue of this substitute, to borrow money on the State bonds to an amount equal to that permitted under the section of the Constitution which we have already adopted—or would it inhibit it? If it would prevent the incurring of any indebtedness beyond that, then it occurs to me that this section covers the entire ground; but if not, I would very much prefer the system contemplated in the article as originally presented by my colleague, (Mr. Fitch.) I merely suggest these inquiries that we may know precisely where we stand. I believe that one per cent., allowing that we are to realize a revenue by taxation upon the gross proceeds of the mines to an amount of eighteen or twenty millions, will be adequate to maintain a State Government well. But I do not want anything here that shall be so indefinite that the Legislature, under the pressure of want, perhaps, can drive through these sentences with a four-horse team. I want it made so tight that it cannot leak, and so clear that no two honest lawyers can materially differ in their construction of it. I say at the first blush it strikes me very favorably as covering the entire ground; but still I would not wish to vote for it until I can understand it more fully. Mr. LOCKWOOD. I must say that it is strange, passing strange, to my mind, what an entire revolution seems to have taken place in the minds of certain gentlemen regarding the Legislature. They have not only become very fearful of that body themselves, but they tell us that the people, especially in Storey County, are very suspicious indeed of the Legislature. Those gentlemen who have so strenuously contended that the Constitution ought to be left entirely free from legislation, that the wisdom of the Territory was not going to die with this body, and that they had full confidence in the Legislatures which would meet in this State hereafter, now not only propose to restrict every appropriation that shall be made by the Legislature, but they have so great a distrust of that body, and such a suspicion of its dishonesty or inability, that they propose not to pay its members for their services. Now I insist, sir, that the qualifications which entitle a man to a seat in that body, are of the highest order. There are many men in this Territory Wednesday,] DUNNE-COLLINS. [July 20. who are well qualified to be Controllers of and principles as those which govern men who State, but who are not qualified for legislators. are not elected to the Legislature, I am inThat position is one which requires the highest clined to think that this amendment is not policapacity. The man who is to be a competent tic. I object to it also for this further reason, legislator must know something of law, of lit- that it has a tendency to throw the money in erature, of commerce. of agriculture, and of the State Treasury into the very worst possible manufactures, in order that he may understand fund imaginable, and that is the Contingent how certain legislative provisions would affect Fund. That is the fund from which we ought to those interests. Now, sir, granting that the guard the appropriations the most carefully. Legislature is not entitled to our confidence, The tendency would be to keep back all the as gentlemen here assert, still, if you adopt appropriations to the very last, in order to be this provision, what assurance or guarantee sure of having the funds necessary for the payhave we that they would make any appropria- ment of the Legislature. I do not believe that tion, for the State Prison, for instance, if it under this provision there would be a dollar would cut off their own pay? A provision appropriated for charitable purposes. I do not of this character is so novel, so strange, in fact believe that under it there would be a dollar so unheard-of and so untried, that for one I am appropriated for the State Prison, if there were not prepared to support it. I believe that any possibility of avoiding it. I believe that Storey County is capable of sending just as all the appropriations would be kept back for honorable, honest, and intelligent men to the the payment of the Legislature, leaving the State Legislature, as it has sent to this Conven- balance in the Contingent Fund, to be reached tion; and I hope they will send some of the there by special appropriations. Then again, I members of this body to the Legislature, for I do not think it is the best policy to adopt to have full confidence that they would guard well say that the tax levied shall be only one per the interests of the people, and of their own cent. constituents in particular. I am not in favor of this thing called expediency. I believe, sir, that under the solemn oath of office which we have taken as members of this body, it becomes us to judge of all measures, not in the light of expediency, but of right. Under this provision which is proposed to be incorporated into the Constitution, the wheels of government might be blocked entirely. We have a provision already, limiting the indebtedness of the State to the sum of three hundred thousand dollars. If that is not sufficient, and amply sufficient, I believe that we ought to acknowledge the corn," and say that we are too poor to support a State Government. I take it that every member of the Legislature would like to be paid for his services, as well as every other employé of the State, and I take it, therefore, that the members of the Legislature would reason somewhat in this wise that the men who furnish the supplies to the State Prison, might just as well go without their pay as they, or the Governor, or the Controller of State, or any other officer of the State. They will not be obliged to make these appropriations, and they will not do so, if thereby they entirely cut off their own compensation. I insist, not that I wish to occupy the time or attention of the Convention. that this matter should be thoroughly sifted and ventilated, for I desire for one, at least, a more perfect understanding of the subject, before I vote for a proposition so entirely novel in its character as the one before the Convention. Mr. DUNNE. I concur entirely in the sentiments expressed by the last speaker, for I believe that we may safely assume that a man does not lose his natural bent, or change his human nature, because he happens to be elected to the Legislature. And for that reason, believing that the members of the Legislature would still be actuated by the same motives Mr. COLLINS. I find that is left blank. Mr. DUNNE. It was so proposed, certainly. The CHAIRMAN. I think the gentleman from Storey (Mr. Collins) is mistaken. That which was originally proposed left a blank, but afterwards this was withdrawn and the new section offered takes the place of Section 2 of the amendment first submitted by the gentleman from Storey, (Mr. Fitch.) Mr. DUNNE. I will say only a few words more. Here are some figures which I have prepared upon the basis of a taxation of one per cent. Under the basis of assessment and taxation which we have adopted we shall probably have an amount of taxable property of thirty millions of dollars, and a tax of one per cent. upon that amount would raise a revenue of only three hundred thousand dollars. And deducting one-fourth, as is usually done in computations of this kind, for the expenses of collection and delinquencies, it leaves the amount only two hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars a year. That is the whole of the revenue to be expended. Or, if you go upon the assumption that the amount of taxable property will be forty millions of dollars, including the proceeds of the mines in the calculation, then the tax will come to four hundred thousand dollars, and there will be three hundred thousand dollars to be expended. And even if you have fifty millions of taxable property, there will only be four hundred thousand dollars of revenue, or very nearly that, to be expended. Now I would be in favor of the amendment originally proposed, so as to get at the contingent expenses and special appropriations. There is the great leak-hole to be stopped. I would prefer to leave these indispensably necessary public institutions to have a fair chance for existence. I would be in favor of restricting the Legislature in that way for a period of four Wednesday,] FITCH-DUNNE-CHAIRMAN-STURTEVANT-CHAPIN. [July 20. i. cancus years, cutting down the pay of members of the may adopt it. I cannot use the term dictation," because that was ruled out the other Mr. FITCH. One of the most distinguished, if not the most distinguished of historians, Mr. Macaulay, in speaking of the Puritans, says they very often mistook rancor for virtue. So there are a great many people in our own times, and immediately around us, who mistake their prejudices and opinions for principles. Now, sir, I imagine that we are not here for the purpose, each one of us, of forcing upon the Convention his own private, particular, and especial views, and adhering to them with tenacity of purpose, regardless of all the circumstances and surroundings, and of the exigencies which may daily arise. A modern philosopher has said that the difference between a man and a mule is, that a man can change his mind and a mule cannot. We hear a great deal said here about inconsistency, but I believe a man may think one thing one day and another thing the next, and still act consistently. I feel, for one, that if to-day I honestly entertain an opinion and to-morrow events shall have occurred in consequence of which I deem it my duty as a representative, acting in my representative capacity, to adopt a different view, I am not doing any thing inconsistent, immoral, or improper, in taking such a course. I frankly stated in the outset that I was opposed to tying up the hands of the Legislature. As a matter of theory, I believe in the largest liberty for the Legislature, but I do say that there is a necessity for restricting the Legislature, in the way I propose, because the Constitution will be rejected if we do not; and as I regard the adoption of the Constitution as of more importance than my own consistency, I have changed my views, and am now for restricting the Legislature. Mr. DUNNE. I rise to a point of order. The gentleman cannot impugn the motives of other members. I will not make the point of order however, if the gentleman will specify instances. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would have taken notice of the infraction of order before, but for the fact that the present occupant of the chair thought the gentleman's remarks were directed to him, and desired an opportunity to reply hereafter. Therefore the Chair has allowed the gentleman to proceed in his line of remark. Mr. FITCH. I beg leave to state that I have impugned no man's motives, and do not intend to do so. Mr. STURTEVANT. I think, perhaps, the gentleman refers to me. Mr. FITCH. Not at all. Mr. STURTEVANT. Well, I will inform the gentleman, then, that he has hit my course to a dot. [Laughter.] Provided the Constitution is framed in such a shape that I can recommend it to my constituents, I shall do so, and if it does not, I shall not. I am not willing to go home to my constituents and tell my neighbors a lie about anything-at least, not unless I can make money by it. [Laughter.] If the Constitution is got up in that kind of a shape that I can conscientiously recommend it for them to adopt, I shall do so; otherwise, I shall not. The gentleman from The CHAIRMAN. Mr. FITCH. Mr. Chairman Mr. CHAPIN. I rise to a point of order. It is this: that time is being consumed here, day after day, and hour after hour, by gentlemen impugning the motives of others, and constantly departing from the line of argument; and I do insist that it is the duty of the presiding officer to compel every member to adhere strictly to the business before the Convention. We shall not get through for a month to come, unless gentlemen are confined strictly to what is really before the Convention. ated remarks which he not only believed to be out of order, but which the gentleman himself must have known were not in order. Now there is another circumstance in connection with this matter. I am not making any charge upon the members of the Convention; it is a mere circumstance, which I do not pretend to account for, and I do not attribute unworthy motives to anybody. I should be The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has already very sorry to do so. But I say it is a remarka-stated the circumstance under which he tolerble circumstance, nevertheless, that those gentlemen who are opposed to the adoption of a State Government, and those whom we may expect hereafter to oppose it, are all now opposed, apparently, to so perfecting the Constitution as to make it acceptable to the people. It is perfectly marvellous that gentlemen who came here favoring the adoption of a State Government, and who have not been able to get their own views and those of their constituents incorporated into the Constitution, are now, although they do not say they are, here, opposed to the adoption of a State Government, and are opposing unanimously and consistently the perfecting of the Constitution, so that the people Mr. FITCH. I only wish to say that my colleague has spoiled one of the best jokes he ever heard in his life. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will proceed in order. Mr. FITCH. It seems, as a Hibernian philosopher once remarked, that the arrow which was aimed at random has hit the mark it was intended to strike. [Laughter.] I was going to say only that those gentlemen having failed to secure the adoption of the views entertained by themselves and their constituents, now seem, |
