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idea of the County Court as the tribunal | more under that Bill in the shape of
of first instance under the Bill. It is compensation for disturbance. You do
true that the right hon. Gentleman has not give him the opportunity of remain.
rather shabbily covered his retreat by ing in his holding, and of enjoying the
throwing the blame upon the draftsmen. reduced rent which you hope the Court
I desire, however, some statement in may in some cases fix. You simply give
reference to this question of the Court, him the right of selling his interest in
for we are still ignorant of what the order to discharge the arrears of rack-
composition of the tribunal will be. rent which have accumulated during the
From the statement of the Prime Mi. past three bad seasons to the landlords

nister with regard to the draftsman of Considering, as I have said, that these
the Bill, it appears that he was prepared small tenants in arrear constitute the
to allow tenants the option of going majority of the Irish tenants, I think
past the County Court and applying we are entitled to make a strong stand
directly to the Commission. I presume, in behalf of the interests of those unfor.
then, that he would have to substitute tunate people. The Government evi.
a great number of sub-Commissioners. dently see that their Bill affords no pro-
This announcement must have whetted tection to the small tenants, for they
the appetite of the multitude of office- have made a very strong point of the
seekers who are hanging around this emigration clauses as the real remedy
Bill, and who are looking forward to its for their case. The Prime Minister and
results with far more hope than the un- his colleagues have said that they do
fortunate tenants. I presume he would not hope to remove the congestion in
appoint a large number of sub-Commis- the West of Ireland by any other
sioners to fix what the fair rents should means than by emigrating—the people
be, and for the purpose of deciding all in families. It is admitted on all hands
the other points which are left to the that the congestion which has existed in
Court to decide. Now, that is one of many parts of the West of Ireland must
the chief defects of the Bill incident to be got rid of somehow or other. The
the principle as well as to its detail. It tenants are crowded upon poor and
is practically impossible, in an agricul- small holdings, where it would be diffi-
tural country like Ireland, where there cult for them to exist in decent comfort
is no other resource than agriculture, to if they had no rent to pay at all

. I find a tribunal which will not be preju- would ask the Government to take these diced either in favour of one side or the small tenants under their protection, to other. For the purpose of deciding those place them under the protection of the questions, all the educated classes from Commission, and not to doom them to whom you would most likely draw your banishment. It is impossible for these sub-Commissioners will be either land- poor people to be happy in America. I lords themselves or their relations, or in have seen many of them in America. I some way under their influence, and in have seen them on the land ; I have seen favour of the maintenance of the land- them in the cities, and they are not lord system in its full integrity. I pass happy, and they are not contented. on now to the question of arrears of Passing their lives in the West of Irerent, and I would say that it was worthy land, and many of them having arrived of more than the passing notice which at an advanced age, they are not fitted to the Prime Minister gave it. There is an undertake the troubles and the struggles overwhelming accumulation of evidence of a new world such as America is. in the Reports of both Royal Commis- Young people, when they go out there, sions as to the indebtedness of the ten-thrive well and can assimilate themselves ants, both with regard to arrears of to the new phase of existence which they rent to their landlords and debts to the have to commence; but to carry out these shopkeepers. You offer nothing in this poor old men and women, and to set Bill that you did not offer the tenant in them down upon the prairies of Minnethe small Bill called the Compensation sota or Iowa, is indeed a very poor for Disturbance Bill last year. You do mockery of English justice to Ireland. not, in fact, offer him so much, because The example of what was done by Father you only give him the right of selling Nugent, of Liverpool, and by Bishop his interest; and you gave him the Ireland, of St. Paul, was quoted during prospect, at all events, of something some of the discussions upon this Bill.

Vr. Parnell

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As showing the advantages of emigra- the people on to these grazing tracts tion, Father Nugent emigrated some 20 which are not fitted for grass, and selected families from the West of Ire- ought not to be left one instant longer land, sent them over, and placed them in grass—I am not speaking of the under the care of Bishop Ireland. Father rich grazing lands, which it would be Nugent is a remarkable judge of cha- a mistake to break up, but land capable racter; and I will only say of Bishop of improvement and in want of labour Ireland that, if he could not make emi- -I believe we could give these poor gration succeed, no other man is likely people some chance of making them

But, with the exception of productive. I ventured the other night two or three families, all those 20 families to make a suggestion in that direction have proved failures as emigrants, and to the Government. I suggested the the colony which Bishop Ireland estab. Commission should have the power of lished last year had to be broken up buying land for the purpose of building and the people scattered in different decent labourers' houses 'and allotting directions. I would ask the Government half an acre or so to labourers, wherto look into this matter. Emigration is ever it was found they were not already simply a short cut for them. It is simply provided for. However, I was at once an evasion of the responsibility which pounced upon by the Chancellor of the rests on their shoulders. They desire to Duchy of Lancaster, and a lecture in shift the duties which belong to them, political economy was read to me which as the responsible Government of the I shall not soon forget. We were told country, upon some emigration agency, that that was the sure way to bring and at the expense of the British tax- about a return to the condition of the payer. We require the labour of every- old 40s. freeholder; that if you gave the body in Ireland for the purpose of de- Irish labourer land he would try to live veloping the resources of our country. upon it, and would refuse to work for We have plenty of land. I have been the farmers in his district. The right accused of wanting to migrate them from hon. Gentleman, I think, answered his the plains of Mayo to the fertile fields of own speech in another speech he subMeath. I believe once in the United sequently delivered on the Land Bill, States I was guilty of an oratorical flight far more effectually than I could have of that nature; but it was only an ora- answered it. The right hon. Gentleman torical flight. There is no practical had shown that the small cottier tenants necessity for bringing the people from in the West of Ireland-tenants holding Mayo to Meath. There is plenty of not more than from half an acre to five improvable land in Mayo for everybody or six acres-are migratory labourers, there. The Gardeners' Chronicle says there in the habit of migrating every year to are 4,000,000 acres of land laid down in England, or wherever they can get empasture in Ireland which are not fit for ployment. They took their labour to pasture, and which is every year dete- the best market, and worked very hard riorating and becoming less capable of in their employment. The right hon. producing food. I should like to give Gentleman had eulogized, with all his the Commissioners power, by way of well-known eloquence, the industry and experiment, to buy land in the neigh-energy of these poor people, people bourhood of these congested districts who come to England and Scotland every under the Lands Clauses Consolidation year, and live on 6d. a-day, working, Acts, and to transplant the best of those very often, 12 or 14 hours a-day, for the tenants if they desired it-and I am purpose of paying the rack-rent exacted sure they would-upon those lands, and from them for their little holdings at give them a chance of cultivating some home by the landlords. I would ask the of this improvable land, and making it right hon. Gentleman, then, if the miproduce what it is capable of producing: gratory labourers of the West of Ireland, The adoption of this course with regard holding their five or six acres of land, or to some 50,000 tenants would remove more than the half acre which has been the crowded condition of things in Mayo, spoken of, are not prevented from workDonegal, and one or two other Western ing, and working very hard, to better countius; and we should produce a great their position, why should he suppose deal more food for the English market. that labourers in other parts of Ireland, I believe if you get 50,000 or 60,000 of with much less land given them, would

[Eighth Night.]

be prevented from working, as the right comes from hope, and the Irish people hon. Gentleman had suggested in his have no hope. Go amongst them and first speech on this question ? I feel see how listless and despondent they are. convinced that if the labourers were ren- Go to America and see what Irishmen dered independent, on the one hand, of are there. They have made the rail. the landlord, and, on the other, of the roads, they have built cities, and Irish. farmer, if he were independent to the ex- men are to be found there distinguished tent only of his small house and his little in every walk of life. They are to be garden plot, the quality of his labour found as employers of labour, as manuwould be much improved, and he would facturers, and as professional men. We be contented with his lot; a stimulus know that Fulton, the inventor of the would be given to his industry in the steamboat, was the son of an Irishman; shape of the hope of, in time, becoming we know that Roche, the great shippossessed of greater property. In that builder, and Mackey, Flood, and way a fresh incentive to industry would O'Brien, the most successful miners be held out to the agricultural labourer that exist, are all true-born Irishmen. of Ireland. I do not think the question Here is an example of Irish enterprize. of the agricultural labourer could be When I was in Cincinnati a short time settled by meddling with the farmers, or ago, Mr. Holland, an Irishman, took me by insisting upon the latter building over his shop, and presented me with 50 houses or improving the labourers' little dollars and a gold pencil-case, in aid of plots. I would put the labourer under the Land League. Mr. Holland emithe protection of the Commission, just grated some nine or ten years ago from in the same way as I propose that the the City of Cork as a poor boy, who smaller tenants should be put under it; found that he could not get on in his and, if the Commission were formed of own country. I found him employing men who would not shrink from trouble 200 hands in the manufacture of gold ---of Gentlemen such as I now see on and silver pencil-cases, and sending the opposite side of the House, some his goods to Manchester, Paris, and Englishmen and some Irishmen-I feel other places, successfully competing convinced that the result would be an with other manufacturers. I saw enormous improvement in the condition that Mr. Holland had just made a disof the labourers throughout Ireland, and covery, which promised to make a revoa material diminution in the amount of lution in electric lighting. He has disdisaffection that, at present, unfortu- covered how to fuse the metal iridium, nately exists among the lower classes of which has, hitherto, been considered to Ireland. You cannot expect that the be infusible, and has so supplied the people will be contented as long as they want of an electric burner. Now, the are starving. At any rate, before you reason the Irish do not succeed in Ireapply the remedy of emigration try the land is because a nation governed by another plan-namely, the development of other nation never does succeed. Under the resources of the country, and I will such circumstances, communities lose undertake to say you will not be dis- that feeling of independence which to appointed in the result. The right them is just as necessary as to individuals, hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the in order to promote exertion. The curse Duchy of Lancaster has asked, “Why of your rule-of foreign rule in Ireare there no industries--why is there no land, overshadows everything. The conenterprize in Ireland ?" It is not very duct of Her Majesty's Government durdifficult to find the reason. The Irish- ing the past few months has been leadman has been trained to the knowledge ing many moderate men to believe that the result of his labour will not that until your Chief Secretaries and accrue to him. He has learned that Under Secretaries, your Privy Counthat also has been the experience of his cillors and your Central Boards, your fathers before him; and he has come to stipendiary magistrates and military the conclusion that the less capital ho police, your landlords and bailiffs, are lays by and invests in the land, or any cleared out bag and baggago, there can thing else, the better for him, and tho be no hope of any permanent improveless is he at the mercy of other people. ment of the country. I think Sir, I have We cannot have industry in a country said enough to show why I ought not to without a spirit of enterprize; enterprize compromise myselfor those whom I repre

Mr. Parnell

sent, by accepting a measure which I fear / result of his deliberate conviction, biedt cannot be either a final or a satisfactory that he may have indulged in some of solution of this question. I regret very those remarks which he sometimes yields much that the Government appear deter- to the temptation of making. I cermined to miss the great chance which is tainly would fain hope that some of his open to them. I believe that if they had closing remarks are of a character that adopted a different course-had they he would not, upon reflection, desire us permitted remedial legislation to precede to take as his deliberate conviction ; but, coercion—they would have found a very whether that be so or not, I think there much stronger feeling in this country be- is one thing we may learn from the hind them, and that they would have speech-and that is, that in approachbeen enabled to have carried through ing the consideration of this Bill which this House, and also through the other the Government have presented to us House, a much stronger and more per- to work upon, we must lay aside the fect Bill. I hope the result will prove idea that the measure is to be passed that I am wrong in my forecast as to the -whether we approve of it, or wheeffect of the Bill. No one hopes more ther we disapprove of it in our own sincerely than I do that the measure will minds--for the purpose of pacifying the turn out better for the Irish tenants than people who are causing the agitation and I fear it can. As I have said, I and my trouble in Ireland. It is perfectly clear Friends have no desire to keep things in from the speech - indeed, there have a perpetual state of confusion. We de- been other speeches delivered in the sire to see this Land Question and every course of these debates that would show other Irish question settled. We desire the same thing—that no measure such to see this division amongst the classes as this--probably no measure that any

- which, I fear, some Englishmen desire Government would be likely to submit to to perpetuate for their own purposes the House-will have the effect of satisdone away with. We do not want the fying and silencing the demands of those Irish landlords and the Irish tenants who are represented by the hon. Gentlecontinually to live in opposing camps. man. I think it is well at the outset to As individuals, the landlords are well take note of that fact, because we have fitted to take their place as the leaders before us a most serious question, and of the Irish nation. They have been we have to consider matters of very placed, up to the present time, by legis- great difficulty and very great delicacy; lation in a false position, and they would and there is no doubt that we approach have been more than human if they them—that hon. Members in different could have filled it without shame and parts of the House approach them-from disgrace. I would entreat the Govern- different points of view, and are guided ment to re-consider the question, and to by very different considerations. It is endeavour, in Committee, to make the well that we should know, in considering measure more healthy for the poor peo- these matters, what are the grounds we ple, and less hurtful, and to bring about have for believing that the measurem-of such improvement in it that we, the Irish the intrinsic merits of which we may Members, may vote for it without feeling have doubts-ought to be passed for the that we are compromising the position sake of giving peace and preventing conwe have hitherto occupied and sustained. fusion in Ireland. Now, we have arrived,

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: 1 I think, at the end of the eighth night do not know, Mr. Speaker, what impres- of these debates, and we are still dission the speech we have just listened to cussing the second reading of the Bill; has produced upon the mind of the and it has been said that a very conHouse. For my own part, I must say siderable proportion of the discussions that I have listened to it with much which we have carried on have been interest, and, at the same time, a great discussions on points that ought rather deal of pain. The hon. Gentloman has to have been considered in Committee. told us very frankly that he is some. But I venture to think that we have not times subject to the temptation to take been at all excessive in the time we have

oratorical flights, and therefore I spent in the consideration of this meahope that, with reference to some of sure, or in the manner in which it has the observations he has made, we are been criticized, because, in point of fact, not to look on them as altogether the this is a Bill as to which so very much VOL. CCLXI. (TILIRD SERIES.]

2 G

[Eighth Night.]


when you

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depends upon the details, and the details tenant has, and that he is to be at liberty
themselves are of such a character, that to dispose of it just as he can dispose of
you can hardly consider them properly his horse, or his plough, or any other
if you take them one by one, and do not article that belongs to him. I think ]
consider them as a whole. The Bill, I am heard from one of the speakers, I forget
sorry to say, is one which does not, at which—either the Attorney General, or
first sight, exactly speak for and explain the hon. and learned Member for Dun-
itself. There are many things which, dalk, or some other legal Member-the

look at them in the first in- statement that there was no meaning in
stance, you think you understand, but the idea of a man having property un-
with regard to which, when you come to less he was at liberty to dispose of it.
compare one clause with another, you Then, if that is so, we want to know
become somewhat bewildered. We have what is the meaning of these limitations
heard a good deal on several of those of yours ? If this is a man's own tenancy
points, and it is not my intention to his own property--why do you put
night to go at any length into those any limitation upon the right which you
points which have been the subject of give him to dispose of it? Or,

again, so much discussion ; but I will take one when you talk of “his tenancy," will as an instance of the sort of difficulty in you tell us exactly how it is that he bewhich we find ourselves placed on an came possessed of the right? Some get examination of the Bill. I will take the up and say~"Oh, it is perfectly obvious first lines of the 1st clause of the Bill-how he became possessed of it. He was the most important, probably, of all the the man who improved the farm; he provisions that are contained in the mea- was the man who by bis capital and by sure-in which it is laid down that the his energy made it what it is; and he is tenant of a holding shall have the right entitled to the value of the improveto dispose of his tenancy at the best price ments which he has made." Certainly

, he can get for it, subject, of course, to nobody disputes that. We are all percertain limitations which are afterwards fectly ready to agree on that point; and referred to. We want to know the mean- we are, and have been-have been for ing of that expression—"tenancy." We a long time-endeavouring by legislation look to the interpretation clause as we —under the Act of 1870 and otherwise, look at a glossary, in order to see what is to secure to the tenant the full value of the meaning of his tenancy"-what it whatever he has done to improve his is he has to dispose of. We turn to the holding. But we are told there is someend of the Bill, and we find this defini- thing besides that. Well, it is that tion—"tenancy means the interest in a something else we want to know and holding of a tenant and his successors understand; and the great difficulty we in title during the continuance of a te- have in finding out what that something nancy. That is one of the most extra- else is has been the cause of a very ordinary definitions I ever heard. It great part of the debates we have had is open to the sort of objection taken to listen to. I am bound to say now, I to a particular mathematical equation, feel the very greatest difficulty in making when you get a solution in the terms up my own mind as to what is intended of the unknown quantity. It reminds by that expression. The Prime Minister mo very

much of one of the answers the other day, as I understand him, which Sir Robert Peel told us was told us that everything in the nature of given to his celebrated question—"What what is sometimes called the unearned is a pound ?!

The answer was—"It increment-everything that arises from is the interest of £33 68. 8d. at 3 per an increase in the demand for and a cent for 12 months." That is really deficiency in the supply of land, everyvery much the sort of explanation given thing that exceptionally raises the value to these words_"his tenancy." It is of land belongs, not to the landlord, important we should know exactly what but to the tenant who happens to be it is the tenant is to have the right of in occupation. [Mr. GLADSTONE disdisposing of; and we want a much sented.] The Prime Minister shakes clearer explanation than that which is his head. That may not have been his contained in the four corners of the Bill. meaning ; but it was the meaning he When we hear of “his tenancy," we are conveyed to us. There it is--we never led to suppose it is some property the know exactly where we are—when we

Sir Stafford Northcote

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